Episode 7 spoilers
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I just finished the episode and am still processing everything.
Overall: my favorite episode of the season so far.
I had my first moment of actual disappointment - bonus points to anyone who guesses the 1 thing that really bothered me for the first time this entire show. I bet nobody guesses it.
But even that 1 thing isn't enough to dislodge episode 7 as my favorite so far.
I had to rewind and rewatch a couple of things as soon as it was over b/c I just couldn't process what I'd seen quick enough.
All I can say is I have this emotion in me that is this split of I can't believe I'm watching what I'm watching and I just want to stand up and scream with excitement.
I'll write in depth review and thoughts tomorrow. Maybe I'll be able to process by then.
I also really loved it. Ep 4 is still my favourite, but this is a close second, it gave me the same excited vibes.
I think you could tell it was a bit rough in places patching up Mat's absence. My biggest question was where the fuck did Loial go when they got to Fal Dara? Though admittedly, I enjoyed watching enough that this didn't occur to me until after the episode had finished. Seriously, though, what was the point of him other than to comment on the damaged guiding? I still don't get why they decided to have Moiraine channel open the waygate in the first place, I feel like it would have worked better to have had Loial open it BECAUSE you can't channel inside without attracting Machin Shin (not sure if that was an addition, but if so it was one I liked). We know there must be another way because of Fain following (although kinda curious why he's following now if Mat has the dagger...). If they'd headed in with the warning that Moiraine couldn't channel it would have raised the tension, and made her channeling to get them out all the more desperate imo.
I wish they'd let Loial explain more of what the Ways were and why they were made, not just what it used to look like. That was another way it felt like his character was again underutilised.
Machin Shin being in their own voices was a good idea, but not creepy enough for me. There was no real indication that it was a real threat. It was just the mean girl of the Ways lol. I'd have to watch it again to be sure, but did they even explain what it was beyond it being "the black wind" and not to listen to what it said?
I did like the Ways set though.
Moiraine setting the Red Ajah on Mat was an interesting choice. I guess that explains the changes to Amalisa (good catch Asc on the Accepted ring).
The Amyrlin Seat being Moiraine's downfall in Min's vision is interesting. I presume that this will actually be tied to Elaida or Egwene.
Moiraine (and it seems the whole Tower's) knowledge of Min's ability is potentially a bit plot hole-y. If she saw a vision around Tam when she was a child and knew it was about the rebirth of the dragon (which seemed to be the implication) then why was Moiraine so uncertain on the prophecy? She must have known about it, surely, and she doesn't seem to mistrust Min's ability, she describes it as seeing glimpses of the future. It seemed like Moiraine going to the Two Rivers was because of Min to me, so why wasn't she looking for a baby born on the slopes of dragonmount?
The set for Fal Dara was brilliant, my favourite so far.
Highlights for me:
The Blood Snow sequence. Tigraine was fierce!
Rand's whispered snark "If Loial needs our patience we're all gonna die"
Lan introducing "this is Nynaeve" almost exactly like he introduced Moiraine in episode 1 (plus Bukama's expression, I assume that's who it was anyway). I just adore their relationship.
Rand telling Egwene he would go to the White Tower and be her warder *cries*
Uno (needed more flaming Uno). I'm not sure if Uno was so short in the books, but I loved how little he is in the show.
Asc, I don't know what the thing that disappointed you was, but I'm curious!
Quote:Rand's whispered snark "If Loial needs our patience we're all gonna die"
I died laughing. Was so good.
Still not ready to write a long post. But I have to mention that I had very long, amazing dreams last night about the show. Essentially, I am a viewer of my dream, like watching a movie, not involved in the dream as a character. I watched LTT and the Amyrlin in the Age of Legends battle it out, then LTT going insane and slaughtering everyone and getting healed. It was so realistic that I woke up convinced that LTT had been in episode 7 last night and had to check imdb to see if he was credited in the episode.
I think I may be a Dreamer in real life.
I'm in the same place. Still mulling it. I did love it. (OMG, the blood snow was amazing!!! I will confess that the fighting hasn't been that great. Lan and Steppin sparring was, just my personal opinion, stupid looking. Seeing Tigraine kick ass was amazing!!! the fight was incredible. She just kept going despite being in labor. I was blown away!) And there was a lot to think about.
My biggest challenge is that we don't see Rand worrying about being the Dragon until the exact moment he is revealed. There's no undercurrent or layer of worry that it might be him, that he suspected it was him all along.
The emotional flow and editing I need to watch again. To rewatch to figure out what Rand knew and when. Because maybe I am wong.
The egwene perrin rand triangle....stupid. Glad it was a nothing burger, but coming out of Nynaeve's mouth, it had more weight. Again, glad it was resolved quickly (god, I hope). WE dont need love triangles in the WOT- PErrin has enough on his plate and this isn't the WB or MTV. But if it was nothing, Nynaeve's outburst sure seemed dumb. Then again, Perrin hears the black wind mention his loving another woman. Bleh. I hate manufactured drama. Especially when it wasn't in the books. So yeah, did not like this AT ALL!!!
But over all liked it. It may be my favorite, especially as we see plot and characterization blooming.
And I am loving egwene and rand still. Heartbreaking.
Ck, I had the same feel about the fighting. This and Thom's brief fade fight were the only really impressive bits of choreography so far imo.
I knew the "triangle" thing was coming because of something Laila's actress said on twitter. I don't think there will be any more about it personally. There's nothing on Egwene's part, which she states, and I don't disbelieve Perrin saying the only woman he's ever loved is his wife.
My interpretation of Laila and Perrin's marriage is that they married too young, and that Laila's behaviour may well have been insecurity at Perrin and Egwene's close relationship (and misinterpretation of it). On Perrin's part, I think he had realised Laila wasn't the love of his life, and was conflicted about it; he reassures Laila that he loves her and mentions about her not going to Egwene's ceremony. She's clearly accused him of having feelings for Egwene before this point, which means the argument is already in Perrin's head by the time he is confronted by machin shin. What if he did kill Laila because she was right about him? That he was in love with another woman? That doesn't mean he was.
It coming from Nynaeve might not mean anything more than that Laila had confided her fears at some point (which tracks with Nynaeve sending him to the forge), and therefore Nynaeve has also been misinterpreting their relationship. Because they certainly ARE close. And anyone who has been in a close platonic relationship with someone the opposite gender can attest how often other people assume there is something more going on.
But I think he treats Egwene like a sister really, and is very protective in a way that just plays into his character. She accepts him and comforts him when he breaks down about Laila, so Perrin hearing Rand suggest Egwene didn't care about Mat would easily have been enough for him to leap to the defence. Pretty much all of his behaviour can be seen as brotherly, and if there are a few looks, well, she's a pretty girl. Still doesn't mean he's in love with her. Even supposing he did ever have a crush, Perrin's had plenty of time to get closer to Egwene while they travelled together. I'm not suggesting that he would have made a move, but with everything they went through it would have strengthened any existing emotions for sure (and I suspect it would have been horrendously painful for him if it was the case, and we don't see that). If he really was in love with Egwene I think his reaction to being called out would have been different. He's not embarrassed or resigned to discovery. He just seems fierce about the fact he has to explain AGAIN that he loves his wife. I can't see Perrin lying about that personally.
In short I don't think it's a triangle at all (and likewise hope not), I think it was just the kind of misinterpretation that happens all the time in the books. How many times do other characters assume Perrin is having an affair with Berelain? If we didn't get Perrin's POV in the books, how much of his behaviour could have looked like he had feelings for Egwene himself? (I'm thinking particularly of his reaction to Aram).
It was a vehicle for the plot (and was probably a direct result of Perrin being married) but I don't think there's anything there that couldn't be considered canon, not unless it continues to be a thing.
On Rand, I think there are definitely indications of his doubt in previous episodes. His conversation with Dana about not knowing what to do, his conversation with Thom about Owyn, his insistence to Mat that he's there for him, and his asking Mat to "do the same for him." Those things alone are, I think, too subtle for my taste, but the reveal worked well anyway. My husband was surprised but he didn't feel cheated.
Asc, I'm jealous of your dreams!
I just saw someone on twitter describe Rand's epiphany as post-nut clarity and now I can't stop laughing XD Maybe he really did only figure it out in that moment
(12-17-2021, 07:53 PM)Thalia Wrote: [ -> ]I just saw someone on twitter describe Rand's epiphany as post-nut clarity and now I can't stop laughing XD Maybe he really did only figure it out in that moment
Oh jeez! that is awesome. The cobwebs are gone.
Definitely too subtle for my tastes as well. Consensus on a lot of hardcore fan reactions is that they wished the E5 had more character time. But overall, it was a climax/relief. There's still a lot ahead.
But the cat is out of the bag. As I said, I need to rewatch because I
feel like Rand realized sooner than the flashback scene. In which case, his whole thing with the triangle or archery and egwene seems odd. Not because they happened, but, the fact that we didn't see any angst on his part of what that meant. Because it IS a hugh fucking deal!!! It should at least be somewhat obvious that what he's mad/worried about is NOT whatever is actually going on at the moment.
Yeah, it makes sense about the supposed triangle- as in that seems correct. But as a narrative choice, I don't see the need for this. Was completely unnecessary and my honest to god reaction was "oh crap. Is this Twilight now? Teen romance angst. Team Rand or Team Perrin?" I was thankful it ended quickly and
seems resolved.
But still completely unnecessary and stupid to even have flirted with that idea. Manufactured drama, as I said.
I like world weary Min. She definitely seems older, which she was. She didnt call him sheepherder (that I noticed) but she definitely seems like she is too old for him.
And that scene with Egwene and Rand- Ill stand by your side no matter what happens- I couldn't help but think of Jesus Rand facing an angry Amyrlin Egwene in book 13. And how far they'd come. Somehow, I think this kind of foundation makes their later relationship richer. And maybe she won't be quite such a bitch to him (sorry, but that was and is my honest reaction to her then. I better not get started on Egwene and her demanding respect for her elected office but not giving any to the actual Dragon himself, chosen by the pattern...Nope. Better shut up.) At one point she realizes that while she could never trust the dragon, she could always trust Rand. That it was no accident they grew up together and had the relationship they had. That maybe they will actually FEEL like allies in the last battle instead of enemies in truce (at least as I saw her.)
This is consistently an egwene who can be strong and call out Rand (as Nynaeve did) and it be from the right place. I think this is a much needed improvement.
BAh, should just rewatch.
Marcus Wrote:Yeah, it makes sense about the supposed triangle- as in that seems correct. But as a narrative choice, I don't see the need for this. Was completely unnecessary and my honest to god reaction was "oh crap. Is this Twilight now? Teen romance angst. Team Rand or Team Perrin?" I was thankful it ended quickly and seems resolved.
I don't completely disagree, it just didn't feel that way to me, but I understand what you mean. Honestly, I think it's just a butterfly effect from making Perrin married and therefore one they had to see through. Perrin and Laila had to have an imperfect marriage, and Laila's jealously/insecurity over Egwene was the reason they appear to have chosen to imply it to viewers -- I think it was probably the most convenient to convey easily, especially as P and E spend a lot of the first book travelling together and do have a close relationship. Perrin does put women on pedestals, too. I remember after the 1st episode aired that some people were already suggesting Perrin had feelings for her (I didn't see it and dismissed it at the time). So I think they had to make it clear Perrin doesn't actually feel that way, which that scene did. Egwene shows no interest in Perrin so there can't be a triangle anyway, just Perrin mooning which would be pointless. If they do pursue it any further, I'll admit I'm wrong and join you being grumpy about it though.
I also liked Min being world-weary.
Rand might have realised sooner. I've watched it twice but didn't look out for that the second time. If he does realise before the scene with Egwene though, I think him telling her to go to the Tower is the tell. Being her warder is a pipe dream, he just wants to make sure her future is secure. As a channeler, the WT is the best place she can be and he wants her to promise she'll go. If he thought she might be the dragon, that's a pointless assurance -- she'll be the dragon. If she's not the dragon, chances are she'll be dead (IF she does go to the Eye, which she has already adamantly said she wants to before this scene). It reads to me like he might already be planning to go to the Eye alone at this point, and is reassuring himself that Egwene will be all right without him. Not that they make it obvious, but he must be using the flame and void when he's shooting the arrows, so you wouldn't expect him to show any emotion at least at that point.
I can't remember what he says during the triangle scene, and if there are any possible tells there. My feeling is he probably began to realise after machin shin, which was why he was crying when they came out of the gate. The bit before the triangle scene, when Moiraine tells them whoever is not the dragon will die at the Eye, is I think the point he decides he must act on his doubts -- this is the first time there is a definitive consequence to them all going to the Eye, Moiraine's evasive before then. He might not be sure at that point, but he won't allow his friends to die for him. He mulls it over some more, gets his promise from Egwene, and goes over all the reasons it might be him -- but I only think he's completely sure after he speaks to Min.
Making a big deal of Rand and Egwene's relationship now will definitely improve things later on I think. I agree they have much improved Egwene's character in what we've seen so far.
(12-17-2021, 08:53 PM)Thalia Wrote: [ -> ]If they do pursue it any further, I'll admit I'm wrong and join you being grumpy about it though.
I HOPE they don't pursue it any further. But regardless, it seemed a completely pointless addition. Adding, at most, a potential crush on Egwene to Perrin who already got and killed a wife just seems one thing too many. It really felt completely off and manufactured (I use that word a lot because it truly does not feel organic. It feels put in in order to play up the tension or angst or give them something to argue about. But they could have done it without something so needlessly stupid and childish and cliche. Fridging Laila, as important as that is, is enough cliche.) I don't think they can write their way out of this, for me. It was just stupid.
Quote:Rand might have realised sooner. I've watched it twice but didn't look out for that the second time. If he does realise before the scene with Egwene though, I think him telling her to go to the Tower is the tell. Being her warder is a pipe dream, he just wants to make sure her future is secure. As a channeler, the WT is the best place she can be and he wants her to promise she'll go. If he thought she might be the dragon, that's a pointless assurance -- she'll be the dragon. If she's not the dragon, chances are she'll be dead (IF she does go to the Eye, which she has already adamantly said she wants to before this scene). It reads to me like he might already be planning to go to the Eye alone at this point, and is reassuring himself that Egwene will be all right without him. Not that they make it obvious, but he must be using the flame and void when he's shooting the arrows, so you wouldn't expect him to show any emotion at least at that point.
I can't remember what he says during the triangle scene, and if there are any possible tells there. My feeling is he probably began to realise after machin shin, which was why he was crying when they came out of the gate. The bit before the triangle scene, when Moiraine tells them whoever is not the dragon will die at the Eye, is I think the point he decides he must act on his doubts -- this is the first time there is a definitive consequence to them all going to the Eye, Moiraine's evasive before then. He might not be sure at that point, but he won't allow his friends to die for him. He mulls it over some more, gets his promise from Egwene, and goes over all the reasons it might be him -- but I only think he's completely sure after he speaks to Min.
This may be. WIth a rewatch, watching for tells that Rand is worried about it being him will help. I thought he was crying because
what we heard, up to that point, of Machin Shin was about his relationship with egwene. The flashback shows the other half. I'm not a fan of creating mystery by witholding part of a scene. In general, I like what happened, but honestly, those kinds of mysteries (where they edit out the crucial info until later- Mary Higgins Clark used to do it all the time. James Patterson too.) annoy me because clearly they were cut around.
But my complaining makes it seem like I had major issues. I didn't. I loved it over all.
EDIT:
Oh God, I think I can see a reason they *MIGHT* have implied a triangle. Maybe it's what drives Rand and Egwene apart. I hope no. Please, I hope not. That makes me want to puke.