07-31-2013, 08:10 AM
I was talkin' to His Oppressionhood and it came up that Furia are essentially sniffers. If you look at the description it's, like, right there. They can smell wherever strong emotions happened. That must be kinda yucky.
07-31-2013, 08:10 AM
07-31-2013, 03:04 PM
3am or not, that made perfect sense, Hood!
And I agree with Aria and Nick; furia persist through the Ages and were not created by channelers. Aside from the fact they are basically Sniffers (as pointed out by others), if they were creations of the gods I don't think the Atharim would tolerate them no matter how useful they were.
And I agree with Aria and Nick; furia persist through the Ages and were not created by channelers. Aside from the fact they are basically Sniffers (as pointed out by others), if they were creations of the gods I don't think the Atharim would tolerate them no matter how useful they were.
07-31-2013, 07:37 PM
The discussion seems to be heading in a way that allows furia to be tolerated within the realm of Atharim. Because they are something older than any one Age.
Not to stray from the topic at hand, but if we apply this logic, we must also now look critically at the Atharim and Wolfkin.
Not to stray from the topic at hand, but if we apply this logic, we must also now look critically at the Atharim and Wolfkin.
07-31-2013, 08:48 PM
Atharim and Wolfkin, eh? Well, to continue with my 'broadly painting everyone in a bad light' / 'always assuming the worst' philosophy...
In Rand-land, Wolfkin are, on average, hated and feared. Wolves are vile predators that are clearly Darkfriends. Or Darkspawn. Or in some other fashion totally obviously allied with the Shadow. Despite the fact that once upon a time, wolves helped humanity fight the Shadow. That's a long lost detail, and everyone is more focused on the fact that wovles occasionally kill livestock and are totally 100% man eaters. Whether there be evidence or not.
People always focus on the worst of things. One bad apple can soil everyone's opinion of something, even in the modern age. Logically, Wolfkin should be closely allied with the Atharim. Wolves undoubtedly hate the things that go bump in the night, seeing as many aren't natural, and they're all pretty not nice. So shouldn't Wolfkin, who can bridge the gap between humans and intelligent telepathic immortal-souled wolves be an awesome thing? They've got heightened senses all across the board after all, and could easily hunt the monsters, even in urban settings (much like Furia).
But then again, every now and then a Wolfkin goes feral. He caves in, looses his humanity, and oft becomes a confused, scared animal. Loved ones try to lock them up, try to help them, and they invariably die or have to be killed for attacking former loved ones or those seeking to 'help' them. They were probably burned at the stake for being possessed, or had holes punched in their skulls to 'let the demons out.' All that super-awesome enlightened stuff humanity has done to itself over the years.
I'd like to think the Atharim, due to their long and 'awakened' history (knowing of the past Ages, of monsters, and of Channelers) would realize that in most cases, Wolfkin would be an invaluable ally (or asset) and would embrace them. But much like the Children of the Light and their original teachings on Aes Sedai (they aren't all bad, but but the One Power can corrupt, which eventually became 'they're all Witches to be reviled and hated'), would the Atharim have turned away from allying/liking Wolfkin, to hunting them?
So I would LIKE it that the Atharim are Wolfkin friendly. But I always assume the worst of people, and would think that due to those bad-apples (Wolfkin that loose their humanity), the Atharim hunt Wolfkin as some sort of horrible Loup-garou.
In Rand-land, Wolfkin are, on average, hated and feared. Wolves are vile predators that are clearly Darkfriends. Or Darkspawn. Or in some other fashion totally obviously allied with the Shadow. Despite the fact that once upon a time, wolves helped humanity fight the Shadow. That's a long lost detail, and everyone is more focused on the fact that wovles occasionally kill livestock and are totally 100% man eaters. Whether there be evidence or not.
People always focus on the worst of things. One bad apple can soil everyone's opinion of something, even in the modern age. Logically, Wolfkin should be closely allied with the Atharim. Wolves undoubtedly hate the things that go bump in the night, seeing as many aren't natural, and they're all pretty not nice. So shouldn't Wolfkin, who can bridge the gap between humans and intelligent telepathic immortal-souled wolves be an awesome thing? They've got heightened senses all across the board after all, and could easily hunt the monsters, even in urban settings (much like Furia).
But then again, every now and then a Wolfkin goes feral. He caves in, looses his humanity, and oft becomes a confused, scared animal. Loved ones try to lock them up, try to help them, and they invariably die or have to be killed for attacking former loved ones or those seeking to 'help' them. They were probably burned at the stake for being possessed, or had holes punched in their skulls to 'let the demons out.' All that super-awesome enlightened stuff humanity has done to itself over the years.
I'd like to think the Atharim, due to their long and 'awakened' history (knowing of the past Ages, of monsters, and of Channelers) would realize that in most cases, Wolfkin would be an invaluable ally (or asset) and would embrace them. But much like the Children of the Light and their original teachings on Aes Sedai (they aren't all bad, but but the One Power can corrupt, which eventually became 'they're all Witches to be reviled and hated'), would the Atharim have turned away from allying/liking Wolfkin, to hunting them?
So I would LIKE it that the Atharim are Wolfkin friendly. But I always assume the worst of people, and would think that due to those bad-apples (Wolfkin that loose their humanity), the Atharim hunt Wolfkin as some sort of horrible Loup-garou.
07-31-2013, 10:08 PM
Wolves in the middle ages were seen as dangerous at the best of times, and evil at the worst, at least throughout Western Europe. The stories of werewolves are never really good, and the first "known" tale of Lycaon in Greek myth says that Zeus turned him into a wolf for "testing" his Godhood by serving his own slaughtered son as a meal.
Obviously that's not true, but if we are going by the distorted truth of things, it seems the Atharim, even with their extra knowledge, would have been affected by the negative press the poor wolfkin received over the years.
So I'd agree with Hood. I don't think they would randomly kill them like the rougarou, but I don't think they would be particularly accommodating.
Obviously that's not true, but if we are going by the distorted truth of things, it seems the Atharim, even with their extra knowledge, would have been affected by the negative press the poor wolfkin received over the years.
So I'd agree with Hood. I don't think they would randomly kill them like the rougarou, but I don't think they would be particularly accommodating.
08-01-2013, 07:50 AM
With the bad rap werewolves, lycans, garou, and all things wolfy -- unless you're Team Jacob, in which case, your opinion doesn't count *grin -- Wolfkin, while still human, could be seen as an uncontrollable, dangerous, wild creature. However I'd bet they'd have a much easier time hiding from the Atharim. At least after the invention of contact lenses.
08-01-2013, 11:16 AM
Jax, did you really just acknowledge the existence of Twilight, there? *pokes* Are you feeling ok!?
I think the Atharim have to be careful about giving out too many free passes. Furia they can justify, particularly if the “general” members of the Atharim are taught to believe that they’re divinely destined to support the cause. I don’t think you can tinker with the history or mythical origins of wolfkin in the same way (particularly because of the existing negativity), so they can't be justified away - even if they're also clearly not "god" creations but something that's spun out in every Age, like channelers and furias.
Both furia and wolfkin have human appearance - they are human, and both are a natural occurrence and not creations of the gods. Does it get them a free pass? I'd say no: the furia's ability is an extension of a normal human ability (empathy) whereas wolfkin take on wolfish characteristics, which makes them more non-human. If that makes sense.
I agree wolfkin are very likely to dislike the (evil) things that go bump in the night, and perhaps even take it upon themselves to hunt such creatures down whether they know about or are involved with the Atharim or not. Which might naturally lead them to discover the supernatural world on their own. Although if they are hunting monsters, and doing it in an animalistic way, then the Atharim are potentially going to confuse them for the enemy anyway.
So, my impression of the Atharim as a society is that they mostly operate on an individualistic basis or in small familial or friendship groups (particularly in more rural areas); one catches wind of something unusual, investigates, and then takes appropriate action. They might call in help if they need it, but mostly it’s a kind of “just get on with it” job - like Rune and her Uncle Seth. In Tehya’s thread I mentioned her going through collated news reports. If something’s made the news, it needs to be dealt with quickly; thus needs a more coordinated approach, and I think there would be a higher rank of Atharim who did that. Especially in cities.
Anyway, total tangent there, but the point I’m getting at (trying to… =P) is that most judgement calls are going to be on an individual basis; whether an Atharim will hunt a wolfkin is going to be up to that individual Atharim and how dangerous they perceive any one particular wolfkin to be. Any action a wolfkin takes that lands them in the public eye is invariably going to draw the eye of Atharim tasked to monitor such things, which would land them with a hunting group on their tail.
So, perhaps “officially” the Atharim would hunt wolfkin – but in practise they have far more dangerous creatures to deal with, and those take precedence. So long as a wolfkin keeps his head down and his nose clean, he’s probably going to be alright. He's likely still going to feel persecuted and hunted, since all it would take is one extremist Atharim to take exception to his existence, but he's not going to have to literally be on the run the same way as a channeler.
I think the other thing would be that because wolfkin are human, disposing of them isn't exactly as easy as it would be for the non-human or fringe society creatures like rougarou. If Atharim just went about murdering/assassinating "ordinary" people, eventually that's going to come to the attention of the CDPS or whatever (I'm guessing channeler murders are blamed on the Sickness). Look at KV, for example; she's a prestigious member of the CCD. Unless she went wolfkin crazy, I don't think the Atharim would be targeting her. Too much effort better spent containing the dangerous monsters (like the Ascendancy, haha). Though it doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't have a spare eye on her, just in case.
So what if a wolfkin wanted to join the Atharim or was brought up in a traditionally Atharim family?
If they were accepted, I think they might find themselves ostracised by the other Athraim – they have a physical manifestation of their difference whereas furia don’t – and honestly I don’t know how a wolfkin would feel about hunting and killing the more benign creatures, the ones they don't have an instinctual dislike of. Plus they have divided loyalties and potentially the influence of the dreamworld. How loyal are they going to be if they haven't been indoctrinated since birth? If the Atharim were going to treat/view a supernatural human as a tool, though, then it's more likely to be wolfkin than furia. IMO.
I think the Atharim have to be careful about giving out too many free passes. Furia they can justify, particularly if the “general” members of the Atharim are taught to believe that they’re divinely destined to support the cause. I don’t think you can tinker with the history or mythical origins of wolfkin in the same way (particularly because of the existing negativity), so they can't be justified away - even if they're also clearly not "god" creations but something that's spun out in every Age, like channelers and furias.
Both furia and wolfkin have human appearance - they are human, and both are a natural occurrence and not creations of the gods. Does it get them a free pass? I'd say no: the furia's ability is an extension of a normal human ability (empathy) whereas wolfkin take on wolfish characteristics, which makes them more non-human. If that makes sense.
I agree wolfkin are very likely to dislike the (evil) things that go bump in the night, and perhaps even take it upon themselves to hunt such creatures down whether they know about or are involved with the Atharim or not. Which might naturally lead them to discover the supernatural world on their own. Although if they are hunting monsters, and doing it in an animalistic way, then the Atharim are potentially going to confuse them for the enemy anyway.
So, my impression of the Atharim as a society is that they mostly operate on an individualistic basis or in small familial or friendship groups (particularly in more rural areas); one catches wind of something unusual, investigates, and then takes appropriate action. They might call in help if they need it, but mostly it’s a kind of “just get on with it” job - like Rune and her Uncle Seth. In Tehya’s thread I mentioned her going through collated news reports. If something’s made the news, it needs to be dealt with quickly; thus needs a more coordinated approach, and I think there would be a higher rank of Atharim who did that. Especially in cities.
Anyway, total tangent there, but the point I’m getting at (trying to… =P) is that most judgement calls are going to be on an individual basis; whether an Atharim will hunt a wolfkin is going to be up to that individual Atharim and how dangerous they perceive any one particular wolfkin to be. Any action a wolfkin takes that lands them in the public eye is invariably going to draw the eye of Atharim tasked to monitor such things, which would land them with a hunting group on their tail.
So, perhaps “officially” the Atharim would hunt wolfkin – but in practise they have far more dangerous creatures to deal with, and those take precedence. So long as a wolfkin keeps his head down and his nose clean, he’s probably going to be alright. He's likely still going to feel persecuted and hunted, since all it would take is one extremist Atharim to take exception to his existence, but he's not going to have to literally be on the run the same way as a channeler.
I think the other thing would be that because wolfkin are human, disposing of them isn't exactly as easy as it would be for the non-human or fringe society creatures like rougarou. If Atharim just went about murdering/assassinating "ordinary" people, eventually that's going to come to the attention of the CDPS or whatever (I'm guessing channeler murders are blamed on the Sickness). Look at KV, for example; she's a prestigious member of the CCD. Unless she went wolfkin crazy, I don't think the Atharim would be targeting her. Too much effort better spent containing the dangerous monsters (like the Ascendancy, haha). Though it doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't have a spare eye on her, just in case.
So what if a wolfkin wanted to join the Atharim or was brought up in a traditionally Atharim family?
If they were accepted, I think they might find themselves ostracised by the other Athraim – they have a physical manifestation of their difference whereas furia don’t – and honestly I don’t know how a wolfkin would feel about hunting and killing the more benign creatures, the ones they don't have an instinctual dislike of. Plus they have divided loyalties and potentially the influence of the dreamworld. How loyal are they going to be if they haven't been indoctrinated since birth? If the Atharim were going to treat/view a supernatural human as a tool, though, then it's more likely to be wolfkin than furia. IMO.
08-05-2013, 11:53 AM
More than likely, if an Atharim came across a bloke with glowing yellow eyes who was running around in scraggly clothing on all fours. They'd likely put a bullet in their brain. A nicely tailored, contact-lens wearing bloke with slightly wolfish tendencies probably would skate under the radar.
And Thalia, I never didn't acknowledge Twilight. I simply acknowledge that they are all Twiggy-freaks. *grin.
And Thalia, I never didn't acknowledge Twilight. I simply acknowledge that they are all Twiggy-freaks. *grin.
08-07-2013, 04:30 PM
Ok so there like has to be different, i dont want to say levels because that's like saying power levels in channelers, but like different versions of furia. because there are major differences between me and aria. which i think is because its been sooooooooooo long since i read the books that i dont really remember how all Hurin acted. (other than reading him on the wikipedia page heehee)
and this is all it says about him:
So like aria gets all kinds of emotions, not just violence and she senses them by touching people. So shes actually kind of more like Rogue than Hurin! Which is soooooo cool. So i was wondering like you know how Rune is a sniffer and can see ghosts? (like Rune is extra in touch with the spiritual world). Maybe Aria is a sniffer and something else? Like she's extra in touch with the physical world.
And if we were all furies, maybe not all furies are exactly alike. I dont know.
and this is all it says about him:
Quote:<dl>
<dt>Quote:</dt>
<dd> </dd>
</dl>
A sniffer is an individual who can literally smell violence or the residue of violence. The worse and more recent the violent act the stronger and more foul the smell. This ability is not related to the One Power.
So like aria gets all kinds of emotions, not just violence and she senses them by touching people. So shes actually kind of more like Rogue than Hurin! Which is soooooo cool. So i was wondering like you know how Rune is a sniffer and can see ghosts? (like Rune is extra in touch with the spiritual world). Maybe Aria is a sniffer and something else? Like she's extra in touch with the physical world.
And if we were all furies, maybe not all furies are exactly alike. I dont know.
08-07-2013, 07:48 PM
I see what you're getting at. Perhaps things are getting a bit mingled with the upcoming turning of the Ages and the return of Channelers to the world. Fates and threads are a little off balance, so to speak. Maybe before now, Furia were known only for being 'sniffers,' and in the last generation or so things have been a bit off. Hence the 'mixed' talents that are displayed in Rune and Aria?