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WoT on Prime Episode 4 SPOILERS - Ascendancy - 11-26-2021
Spoiler alert for Episode 4: The Dragon Reborn
Stop reading if you want to avoid spoilers.
I had a feeling it would drop at midnight GMT, so I was refreshing my browser at my local time and elated to find episode 4 popped up within minutes. After a few quick text messages, I hurried to the tv, lowered the lights and settled in to be amazed.
Okay, enough typing. Spoilers coming.
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Perrin continues his habit of being my least favorite character. I'm eager to get him some wolf scenes so he can be interesting again. Nothing else to say. Aram was very charming in this episode. I love his accent that creeps up sometimes. At the scene with him dancing with Egwene and them staring up into the stars, he was a little creepy, like he'd not seen a pretty girl before. And the scene with them looking up at the stars was not a flattering angle for Egwene. Anyone else notice that? She looked about 12 years old too.
Mat's descent into darkness is shown pretty cool. I like that it seems the darkness of Shadar Logoth has infected him in the literal sense. Made for some super creepy vibes coming off Mat. Him staring up into the loft shadows, and we see blood and death everywhere, for a minute my heart jumped into my throat because I was worried Mat had killed the family. But luckily, it was just the Fade. HOLY CRAP that Fade was incredible. I want more Fade fighting scenes. I haven't re-watched it yet, but my memory of that scene was first, it went too fast, second, that Fade was huge, third, its robes were wicked cool, and fourth, Thom held its own against it for a short period of time which was YAY BOOK ACCURATE.
Anyone else notice the doll was named Birgitte?? I'd totally forgotten about her. Guess that means there is a plan for her in later seasons. Foreshadowing!
I really like that the show is making the watcher guess who is the Dragon Reborn. Thom thinking Mat can channel. The story of Owen *cries*. Now Rand thinks Mat might be it is all disarming to the watcher. Good misdirection there, Rafe.
Now to the main event.
HOLY SHIT THE AES SEDAI CAMP. The politicking. The conversations between Korrine and Stepin: like something more than husband and wife or brother and sister. The AS/Warder bond was really shown here. When he felt her die and he almost fell over, it was so moving. She was clearly the one in charge of the camp, even though it was made up of different Ajahs, she was the strongest and in charge. I loved that.
The campfire scene showing the dynamics of all the warders was amazing. It was like watching the last 20 years of my RP life play out on screen. November down to the month of 2021 is my 20th anniversary of WoT RP'ing. *cries again* And the two warders + the Green. Nicely done.
Liandrin is great. I hated her in the books. Not in the way that you like to hate a character, but I really hated her. I am really liking her on the show. She's witty, and I think that is making the difference. Her hating on the perfect, selfless Moiraine was awesome and spot-on Red/Blue hate.
Finally. Logain.
He was really good. The opening scene in Ghealdan was pretty cool. I really loved the personification of his madness and his interpretation of what the voices meant. Moiraine's explanation that the Wheel doesn't care was such an Aes Sedai thing to say. Loved that interaction between them. The shielding was incredible. So far, the channeling is wonderful in the show. I am a huge fan of the way they show it. The shield as the net pressing in on him, containing his threads within a sort of bubble was such a cool way to show it. I never had a good picture in my head of what that should look like. I liked how they did it. Was the cage an actual cage or not? I thought it was a manifestation of the shield, but when he broke free of it, it melted like he dissolved the shield. But then when the Aes Sedai re-shielded him, the cage didn't reappear. So maybe it was a real cage after all. Or maybe it hadn't had time to reform. Not sure. Regardless, the battle was so cool.
And then there was the "radiant sun." FINALLY!! Finally Nynaeve is let loose. Her braids floating in the air. The scream of her rage. That was some freaking awesome scene. I immediately rewatched it as soon as the show was done just to see her in her glory and to know she's only at the beginning. I had flashes in my head of her and Rand cleansing Saidin and teared up. It was so cool. So. Friggin. Cool.
Okay that's all I can remember after my first watch. What caught your eye?
RE: WoT on Prime Episode 4 SPOILERS - Thalia - 11-26-2021
Holy fuck. They really sold it this episode. I'm hooked. I pretty much loved it all. A little speechless actually, haha. My husband is also really enjoying it (according to him it's better than GoT). I personally am loving more and more that I know the story but not what's going to happen.
The tinkers were super garish. I really loved Ila's speech about why she follows the way of the leaf. I don't think it was ever put that way in the books (I might be wrong) but it really hit home. I love the tinkers, but it always seemed a dumb way to live. They made it make sense.
I didn't think Aram seemed creepy, just super enamoured of Egwene. My interpretation of that is because she's an outsider. He said at 20 they were allowed to go travel and live life a bit, so I wonder if the tinker children are a lot more sheltered in the show. He seemed a lot more innocent and less slick than book Aram.
I loved the Mat stuff. The way his horse was skittish and afraid of him. The creepy blackness (guess we know why Mashadar wasn't a fog now). His conversation with the kid tugged on my heart (changing Elsie to a child really worked). I may have squee'd when she said her doll's name was Birgitte. And oh man, when she was left behind at the end *cries*
Mat is so likeable it's painful watching him go through the dagger's grip.
So THAT Grinwall scene. My jaw dropped. The Fade was awesome. I'm not actually convinced it wasn't Mat, though -- he was bloody and the little girl, at least, had a *blade* wound very clearly in her back (and she was outside not inside with the fade and the rest of the family). It definitely felt ambiguous to me. I know the dagger was supposed to cause festering black wounds, but I wonder if they wanted the ambiguity of did he didn't he -- for both the audience and Mat himself. In Rand's dream we see Perrin using a hammer to hit a body (his wife I guess) and Mat staring at his bloody hand. Aside from that being a rather nice nod towards the Band of the Red Hand, I wondered if it was indicative of the fact the dagger's curse *did* make him kill the family, or at least the girl. They're literally all seeing fears, but more than that, they're fears that have happened for Perrin and Rand (Rand's being Egwene's loss). Makes sense that it might be the case for Mat too. Betrayer of Hope, indeed.
Plus Mashadar making Mat do something like that to a little girl would be really, truly evil.
The fact Thom suspects Mat has channeling madness works *perfectly* for the who is the DR changes. I thought it was a clever way to mention Owen in a poignant way too. It's an improvement to the dagger storyline imo. I might be misremembering, but didn't Rand at least notice he had the dagger and how Mat coveted it in the books? It was so obviously a BAD thing to the reader (not to mention one he's told not tot take) that I always found it frustrating how it played out. Also, Thom's line about there being nothing more dangerous than a man who knows the past was perfect.
Asc, I so felt the same about the Aes Sedai camp! The campfire scene was *chef's kiss*. I cant wait for ep 6 and the Tower. I loved Moiraine and Alanna's rapport (the story about the dog), and how many characterising details we get just from that one little anecdote. I would have loved more of just watching all the dynamics to be honest, haha. I did think they managed to fit in a shit-ton of worldbuilding too, certainly my husband seemed to keep up with how the AS, warders and ajahs seem to work (in as far as we've seen in the show so far).
I like that they slipped in about Suian not liking Moiraine and threatening to haul them back to the tower, yet when Moiraine was dying of trolloc poison it was Suian's name she whispered *grin*
Also loved the "I shouldn't have had a drink, you always get emotional" scene.
I really enjoy Lan and Nynaeve's snippy chemistry, their dialogue often makes me chuckle (you can share our fire if you promise not to shove anyone in it). Loved Nynaeve stubbornly sitting on her own before that. The old tongue scene was very sweet -- you could see how anxious Nyn was about saying yes when he asked if she wanted to know what the words meant, and I thought it played very well against their scene in the previous ep where she tells him to ask his question, he does, and she refuses to answer. They're handling the romance far better than RJ imo. Drawing parallels between Nyn being orphaned and Lan being the last of Malkier worked well for me.
Also, I was laughing so much when Liandrin commented on the mispronunciation of Nyn's name that I had to pause and explain why.
I also kinda love Liandrin, Kate Fleetwood is doing an excellent job, and I like that Reds are not being portrayed as baddies. As far as viewers are concerned, she's essentially the hero of the piece -- if they'd gentled Logain like she wanted none of that would have happened.
So, Logain's escape! I didn't guess it would be Moiraine (figured on Liandrin) but it makes a lot of sense -- I suppose this is what she'll be punished for at the Tower. In the books she and Suian were taking huge risks hunting down and protecting the DR, but it always felt very much that the reader was encouraged to just see the rest of the Tower as being in the wrong because the prophecy was ironclad. This really makes it far more grey -- just look at the destruction that's followed Moiraine so far. I really like the uncertainty about the prophecy's details for this. Love Pike's portrayal of Moiraine more and more, the little smiles she does sometimes -- usually when she's getting close to new info on the DR, make her seem almost fanatic in her hunt. She reacted the same when the kids had the bat dream -- excited that she was on the right path, not showing any care for the kids themselves. Juxtapose that against the times we see her softer/more human side (teaching Egwene to embrace for instance, or her scenes showing her connection with Lan) and you can really get a sense of how driven she is. Pike really makes Moiraine's 'I will sacrifice anything for this' attitude very believable, and it's nice to see it presented with more consequences. She literally got a sister killed, and very nearly herself and her warder. I think Suian is going to make her publicly reswear on the oath rod to prove she's not Black and maintain their public facade of hating on each other.
I assumed Logain's cage was physical, it's the same one he was transported in on the wagon thing. When he broke free of the shield he melted it.
I liked the intro a lot, I'm glad we got to see him pre-gentling and get a sense of what kind of man he was. In such a tiny scene they did a fab job of showing both his madness and how he was able to amass such a large and loyal following. Interesting that he sets the stage for the DR hearing the voices of previous dragons. My first thought, given the way it was presented, was that this might have been our first subtle intro to the Forsaken. That would be an interesting twist on saidin's corruption, if they are able to influence through the taint. But I'm not sure that's workable for Rand, unless LTT provides protection from their influence and replaces his own brand of crazy in the process. Haha. Crackpot theory I know.
Logain's performance was really strong. His gentling was emotive. I found his realisation that he was a false dragon quite heartbreaking.
I LOVE Nynaeve. That last scene was epic and beautiful and gave me all the feels (literal goosebumps). My husband was distraught when Lan was bleeding out, he's his favourite character.
The battle was my only real complaint. The AS kicked ass but the warders felt a little redundant.
But my biggest complaint is that we have to wait a whole week for the next episode.
There's probably more, I'm still on a bit of a high.
I'm interested to see how they're going to maintain interest/raise the stakes in the Egwene/Perrin segments. I have to admit them traipsing across the Caralain Grass the past few eps has been my least favourite part, and while I personally enjoyed seeing the tinkers, there's not a lot of story pull there. At the moment it all just feels like set up for Perrin's inner conflict to have its next test when the Whitecloaks arrive. It might just be feeling weak because Rand and Mat have already had the danger of Dana and now the introduction of the dagger, though... while they've literally just been wandering followed by some weird wolves, and now they've found some pacifists.
EDIT to add, I really wish they didn't hide the origin animations in xray, I keep forgetting to watch them. I like that some of them take the format of an Aes Sedai teaching novices. Today's was literally on the differences between saidar and saidin.
RE: WoT on Prime Episode 4 SPOILERS - Mikhail - 11-27-2021
This episode hit it out of the park. I loved nearly everything about it. One of the things that excites me is that this IS the wheel of time- but I am not certain as to what will happen next. I know the beats. The main character points that need to be hit. But how they get there, how they decide to show specific character struggles or accomplishments, is unknown.
Reminds me a lot of the gardener method of writing where you write specific scenes or have specific plot or character elements you want to hit, but grow to that place organically. It's wonderful and has made the wheel of time new for the first time since the series ended.
Specifics:
Tinkers: Loved 'em. They always seemed impractical, clueless- frankly ridiculous. That kind of pacifism in the face of violence being done to you or your children...well, it seemed like ideals had superseded harsh reality. The whole "violence does harm to the person DOING the violence" never sat with me. My attitude was "fuck them!" If they are going to kill my child, I'm not going to let it happen, taking some solace in the fact that the act hurt that person too. I don't care about their feelings. I care about the child crying out to me to save them.
But this...the idea that this was an act of revenge. That this was an attempt to make the next turnings of the wheel better *for* those souls who had been torn by violence was so much better. Not that I agree. But at the same time, I can understand it. And see how, if that is what you truly believe, you could do this, as painful as it is. It was beautifully done.
And I like the exploration of rebirth and how that impacts people's perspectives. Despite the lip service to the idea that souls get spun out again, in the books we never really saw that fact give meaning to a person's life- or an explanation as to why suffering exists or how to escape it (with the single exception of Rand as LTT reborn). Which, in hindsight, is pretty strange as the idea of rebirth, among other things, provides an effective explanation to those very questions. For religions that attempt to tackle those big questions about suffering, its existence, justice and reward, rebirth provides one lens through which to find solace. (Heaven and hell and divine judgment is another paradigm that people gravitate to.)
Seeing people talk about rebirth- with the festival at Bel Tine, by Logain or with the Tinkers- and the meaning and explanation it gives people is a nice touch that, in reality, I think makes RJ's in world cosmology more realistic. Religion feeds people's needs to understand and explain their place in the world. The cycle of rebirth plays a huge role in this world and it should show.
Liandrin- Damn! We know she's a darkfriend...and yet, she doesn't come off as wrong. Her assessment of their abiltiy to shield logain for the entire journey was spot on- especially if, as I strongly believe- he was just biding his time. In the books, Logain is forsaken level strength. Not Rand level but damn high. Two sisters should not be able to keep him shielded. She comments he isn't sweating or straining. Periodically he stretches and it freaks them the hell out.
Add to that the possibility that she purposely let her shield weaken so that she could follow through on her words that if he broke free, they would be able to stop him with the 3 oaths- and she comes across as far more formidable and sympathetic.
I love that the darkfriends are real people. Not ridiculous small minded caricatures, as we saw in many.
Nynaeve- Jesus....what a badass. It's no secret that she and Rand are my favorite characters in the books (despite my initial dislike of her for what I consider bullying). She is driven by love and compassion. And when she explodes....damn. Just damn! It was glorious.
It's curious as to how Logain was able to see it. He shouldn't be able to see saidar weaves. They've not done away with that. Moiraine says she can't see his weaves and there's no reason to think it is only one sided. He can see taveren, but a) we've no indication that she is taveren and b) he saw her enter the cave and didn't freak out. It was only after her scream and healing. Non-female channelers might not be able to see the weaves, seeing the effects of channeling occurs. Skin knitting together as wounds heal. He's healed (the king of Gealdan). He knows what it requires. Seeing Nynaeve do it to literaly everyone (excet Kerene) in the cave all at once, well, that could be enough.
And perhaps being untrained and working off instinct, she included elements of air and fire and whatever that WERE visible to people.
EDIT TO ADD: WOT consultant explained that Logain did NOT see Nynaeves weaves but was reacting to the visible shockwave:
https://twitter.com/sarahenakamura/status/1464417339609210883?t=BKb8UC_8B77UH3Qi67lLjA&s=19
Mat- every episode makes me feel the loss that will be Barney Harris as Mat. No aspersions on the new guy, but Barney Harris owns this role. Brilliant the way they muddy the water with the Dragon's role. Rand's channeling to break down the door in the previous episode was subtle. There was not overt comment. Thom's words to Rand bringing the focus to Mat (as the burning sun line of Moiraine and Logain did to Nynaeve) is awesome.
Two things really stand oiut.
1)Mat and the little girl. Only cements his good heart and concern for children. Birgitte was amazing. But the foreshadowing too. "She watches over me while I sleep." "She wants to see the world." And teh fact that Mat and Birgitte have a special bond- damn! This is deep and brilliant stuff. I am excited to see when she shows in Telaranrhiod, as stuff like this seem to point forward to.
2) "I see you hiding." So creepy on so many levels. One things particularly intrigues me. We know how the Myrdraal even fear Fain's dagger. How he used it to cow one at the two rivers. He killed one and nailed it to a door in a town in the borderlands.
I wonder if the fade is hiding from him because it can sense the danger of the dagger. Maybe that is why it "circled" around the boys by killing the people too. Or maybe it killed them and when Mat was drawn to the evil (the people of shadar logoth hated the shadow and rooted it out, birthing a new evil int he process). Aginor called the dagger and the evil in Mat an "old enemy, an old friend".
The idea the fade might have been holding back because of Mat's dagger- at least at first- is intriguing.
I noticied too that Rand appears to have sensed the Myrdraal. Channelers can sense the DO's evil., Rand had that dream and woke up immediately to find Mat gone. We don't know if Mat had a dream or if it was one from Ishamael or was his own senses warning him.
Egwene- I continue to love this Egwene. Her smile and joy- especially after the fear of the last few days- is real. But she hasn't forgot everyone. Neither did book Egwene. I like that she spoke of Rand. Again, I like that this Rand and Egwene had a relationship- and that it was not to be. That tearing (which, truthfully, didn't become clear both to her and to others until book 2, when she realized she didn't love him anymore. Remember, Rand was obsessed with saving her from the Seanchan.)
RJ didn't do great with setting up relationships, For every Rand and Aviendha or Rand and Min, you had a Thom and Moiraine, Rand and Elayne, or even Lan and Nynaeve (in book 1, at least) that just came out nowhere and existed by authorial fiat. Seeing the existing relationship that feels like a relationship makes the ending of it more painful. And seeing what develops between Nynaeve and Lan- how organic is was- is beautiful.
It's nice to see how this show has fleshed out or made clearer things RJ only hinted at or didn;t really bring to logical or organic fruition. the characters are much more sharply drawn here (as are the implications of his cosmology and world) than in the novels. It's very cool. Which gives me hope for how- should be get there- they handle the whole Demandred/Sharan thing.
I love it.
RE: WoT on Prime Episode 4 SPOILERS - Thalia - 11-27-2021
Agreed on the tinker's philosophy making much more sense on the show. It'll make what's coming difficult watching. Also agree that the show generally exploring more of the religious/spiritual aspects of a world that believes in rebirth and giving it meaning to regular people is fantastic.
On foreshadowing and book lore, I can't see how anyone can watch and think the show isn't in the hands of someone who loves the books. We aren't even going to see Birgitte this season and no one's going to remember a doll's name, yet the symbolism and emotion of the scene isn't impacted while providing something more for book readers (it still means something and makes sense to non-book readers, I mean. Mat being his sisters' protector, and the doll being a protector/comforter of Else, and the loss of both at the end). So much feels rooted in the books. A little girl having a Birgitte doll makes so much sense for the world but it still could have just been a doll for the scene. Them using it with Mat is just excellent. I hadn't caught the dream reference. There is layer upon layer of detail.
I also wondered if the fade was hiding from Mat, it felt like Mat was hunting/had cornered it to me but I thought I'd just misinterpreted it. You're clearly meant to think the "I see you" is for the little girl at first (a nice play back to Mat using hide and seek to protect his sisters during Winternight, when he tells them to go hide at the tree). I knew trollocs were afraid of Shadar Logoth but couldn't remember anything about fades. I had forgotten about him nailing one to a door.
You can see it three ways imo:
- That the fade killed the family, and was scared off/interrupted by Mat and cowed by the dagger
- That Mat killed the family in his trance, before the dagger became aware of the fade and hunted it down (perhaps the fade followed because Mat separated off; easy pickings until it became aware of the dagger and realised its mistake)
- That the fade killed the family and Mat killed the little girl in a trance (separate locations), then the dagger either hunted the fade down or interrupted it.
Honestly, I think Mat did do something bad. Why would the little girl's body be outside? It's the middle of the night, and the rest of the family are inside. She might have run, but why would the fade waste time chasing her down? It's not a trolloc after meat. I think she was out there with Mat because she trusted/liked him after their earlier interaction.
Rand woke up suddenly much like Egwene did (when the fade was watching the group from the horse, before Shadar Logoth) so I agree it's likely a manifestation of them being channelers and sensing the DO's creatures and not necessarily because of the content of the dream. Mat might have had a dream, we see him in Rand's with bloody hands and in a trance. Given that Perrin is pummelling his wife with the hammer (the hand has a wedding ring) it seems likely they are having those dreams themselves -- Perrin's fear is one Rand wouldn't have any knowledge of. It might have woken Mat up too, but equally, he might have been pulled by the dagger's curse to get up and go kill the family or to hunt down the fade. Whatever woke Mat up he's clearly in the trance we see in the dream when we first see him in the house. He's not himself and that's the important thing.
I was wrong about Mat being bloody when he was in the house, it's only in the dream. The dagger was also clean when he pointed it.
I asked my husband who he thought had killed the family, and he said he wasn't sure if it was Mat or the demon (fade) but that the demon had clearly possessed Mat, so if it was him it was because he was made to do it.
The dagger's effect did seem very like a possession as opposed to a curse/corruption.
Interesting that Logain reacted to the shockwaves, I thought it was going to be the seeing ta'veren talent. The sun descriptor is exactly how Suian describes seeing ta'veren. I thought maybe they only glow that brightly when they are pulling strongly on the Pattern, especially in the context of a visual medium like tv. The show had just killed off two of its primary and most important characters. Nyn righting the Pattern with the healing would have been quite the feat to pull everything back into place. Nevermind. (I know Moiriane said there were only 4 ta'veren in 2R but I figured it was another case of unreliable information. Logain and Nyn are the wrong age but show other signs related to the DR. Moiriane is already pretty sceptical of her intel, not knowing whether the DR is male or female etc. I think we are going to see her struggling with uncertainty going forward).
Can I also just say that I just remembered that the Mashiara song lyrics reference their love being as strong and bright as the sun. Given what she's just done it brings a whole new level to the lyrics. I can't wait for the translations.
You think Liandrin compromised the shield? I assumed it was going to be her because of the books and the conspiracy mentioned about the Reds, but she was knocked out by Logain breaking free. That seems risky on her part, we know how strong Logain is, she could have easily been killed -- as Kerene indeed was. If she was going to weaken the shield for the purpose of creating an excuse to gentle Logain surely she would have had her Red sisters on hand for the aftermath, they'd only have one chance to get it right. Plus her anger at a sisters death seemed both righteous and believable to me, she risked burning herself out and it wasn't even an ajah sister. She got what she wanted sure but there was no evidence she was glad of the cost. I think the others would have noticed if she wasn't pulling her weight with the shield.
It would be an interesting choice for the show to take book reader's knowledge and subvert it. The rumour of the Reds was just a rumour after all.
When Moiraine showed up in the cave at first I thought she was just taking advantage of an opportunity to speak to him. But something in the dialogue made me think at the time she had been more instrumental in orchestrating it than that. Moiraine had already stated that she wanted to speak to him, which she can't do freely in the presence of her sisters, and she's not the type to just sit and wait for an opportunity to come along. She'd make one. I've only watched the episode once, though, so it's only an impression. He almost seemed to be expecting her? Or perhaps when she appeared he was expecting to sway her like he did the king of Ghealdan, his calm manner was the same. She still seemed sus though.
I agree that he was clearly strong enough to break free whenever he chose, whether the shield was compromised or not. Did he allow himself to be captured then, and if so why? To sway the Tower to his claim of being the DR? A trial would have allowed him to speak I guess. Why break free early then? Or maybe he was captured for real, and the AS just underestimated his downplay of strength with the shield maintenance. I don't think he actually attacks to kill until after it's clear Moiraine doesn't believe he's the DR either. But the biggest question for me is HOW did Logain know when to break free. His ears were plugged with Air according to Liandrin. He smiles like he knows it's time before he acts. Did the madness tell him or something else? How does he know the army arrived? How did the army find them?
I wonder if Moiraine was integral to any or all of those things. My best guess is that she actually unplugged his ears so that he could hear and therefore he knew when Kerene's wards were tripped. But I don't see how she could have done that without the others noticing (unless it was possibly in the scene with Alanna, she gets up and goes very close to him while Alanna is still seated and visibly concentrating. She even points out that Alanna is pumping for info due to their friendship, it would be very Moiraine to actually be using the opportunity to distract Alanna). She makes a point of consoling Lan that his mistakes are hers when they talk about him losing the kids. It sounds like forgiveness. But she also states that her mistakes are his as well. Moiraine admitting to mistakes?! She was up to something, something she knew was going to be a huge risk.
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if we find out she had something to do with the attack too. The warders are convinced Ghealdan turned tail, so the AS must believe the same. The warders are relaxed, even drinking. You could chalk it up to arrogance but that's a huge thing for them to get wrong considering who they're transporting and why. They even joke about it. Yet these people are dragonsworn, they believe Logain IS the DR and holds the future of their world in his hands. The AS had to have serious evidence they weren't being pursued, surely. Unless the army really had turned tail and someone tipped Ghealdan off to the location of the camp. It might just be limitations of the production, but it did seem far more like a raid than the march of an actual army. Armies can't just turn around quickly and surprise a camp of AS like that.
Also, is it possible Liandrin isn't Black at this point? If we find out why/when she turns I don't remember. But maybe we'll see it play out for the show. Only wondering because it dilutes the impact of Verin if they pull it like a surprise, but if we see her fall (or at least are made to understand and sympathise with her motivations for turning to the shadow) it won't make every other AS an instant suspect when they're introduced. Of course, we haven't seen much of Liandrin yet, our impressions of her might change quickly. At the moment, based purely on what we see on screen, she seems to very much believe in the Red's cause and the Tower. She's zealous like the Whitecloaks, but her visceral reaction to Kerene's death redeemed her prejudices imo. She's not just a bad egg like she is in the books.
We've heard compelling reasons for becoming a DF with Dana. It would be interesting to see someone actually make the choice to turn to the Shadow.
I wasn't sure if her seeking out Nynaeve was because she sensed a channeler and wanted to recruit, or if she had Black ajah orders. Both seem possible. Her reaction to Nynaeve now will be telling. A female Dragon would be a very different thing to a Red than a Black. I can't see why the Reds wouldn't rally for her, a woman using saidar has a far slimmer chance of breaking the world again. It's literally the best thing they could hope for.
In the trailer we hear Suian asking Moiraine to swear her oaths, it can't be a flashback to her raising because they were novices/accepted together. It looks to me she has to do it publicly to reaffirm her loyalty. Either Moiraine is going to get sole blame for Logain, or Liandrin and Alanna are going to be made to swear too. Gonna be a problem for Liandrin if so.
Also interesting that they didn't chose to use Logain to show the danger of the madness and taint. He was very sympathetic and noble.
RE: WoT on Prime Episode 4 SPOILERS - Thalia - 11-27-2021
I watched again and Moiraine’s words to Lan are about sharing “losses” not mistakes.
Her turning up in the cave did seem opportunistic rather than planned like I thought. I like the idea that she engineered it somehow, it would be very Blue, but there’s really no evidence of it that I noticed. It bothers me a little that Ghealdan just turned up and caught them unawares, but oh well.
Moiraine questioned Logain about being the DR and denounced him only when she saw Kerene was conscious, I think she then joined the effort to shield him because she had no choice not because she believed he was definitely false. Else he said something that tipped her off, I don’t know what (possibly that the voices wanted something -- for him to learn -- but I dunno). She only acted when she saw Kerene awake and weaving though.
I don’t think Logain allowed himself to be captured in the first place given how he fights the shield but also tries to kill the AS. Killing them seems too desperate if he’s strong enough to be in control. He didn’t smile before breaking free, I was wrong about that it was earlier. I think the suggestion is that the voices of madness are whispering to him the whole time.
I watched with subtitles this time, and for the voices whispering to Logain in the cold open we are given a name for the female voice. Elusha. That surprised me if they’re just supposed representational of disembodied madness. X-ray says the character is called Elusha Salid. It’s the only time she appears in season 1. The male voice is not given a name and isn’t accredited in xray (maybe it’s Steve lol).
Logain thought they were past dragons. Either it's madness or they’ve lied to him about who they are under the guise of “teaching him to do better.” Did Logain have a mentioned sister in the books? It seemed far more like manipulation than madness to me. So what or who are these voices? It still seems very Forsaken to me. Certainly it’s going to turn out to be something… any other guesses?
On a second viewing, Thom’s fight with the fade (and the way the fade moved) was even more standout. I loved the horror influences of that whole segment. I think it’s a shame we didn’t get a bit more before his exit though, it lacked the emotional punch it should have had.
I still love the ending. Logain’s performance is superb. The emotion when he’s gentled.
And Nynaeve. Well, it’s still just wow.
RE: WoT on Prime Episode 4 SPOILERS - Mikhail - 11-27-2021
Yeah, all good questions.
He told the King of Gealdan the AS should be following him. And he seems to have incredible confidence in himself. Almost more than the Logain we saw in the books (granted, that was post stilling and all that.) This Logain really thinks he is the DR. I saw the Elusha name in x-ray and the name didn't have any meaning to me. I checked the encyclopedic wot companion and there was no character with that name mentioned. He didn't have a sister that was mentioned either.
So it is an interesting manifestation of the taint. It occurs to me...being a name that SOUNDS wotish but isn't taken, and given his words about past lives, perhaps that is a name of a FEMALE false dragon that his madness takes the form of.
So Logains strength is one step below Rand and 5 steps about the strongest woman. They've powered him down a bit so that Nynaeve can outshine him, which isn't a bad thing, necessarily. But he definitely was biding his time, letting himself be held. The 2 channeler shields were not unbreakable.
But it does lead to questions as to how he knew his army attacked. Moiraine DOES appear to be taking advantage of the situation to speak freely with him. At first, she seems almost like she could be convinced he's the DR, but very quickly disabuses him of that idea. Likely that was to get him talking.
I find it hard to believe that she would engineer an attack on the AS camp so she could have a few moments to question him. Not knowing all the collateral damage it would bring. She is a cold blue, it is true. But she has always had a heart, esp with regard to her sisters. Knowing people could die so she could have a conversation when she seems to immediately conclude it isn't him is odd. But we'll see. She seemed to be stalling him a but, as it gave time for Karene and Liandrin to recover. Still, hard to know.
Liandrin. Damn but I love her. In the books she was nothing but selfish, small minded, power hungry, stupid and a hypocrite. She had a disgust for wilders- and then you find she had channeled before she went to the tower. She sought out the BA from the start. She tried to attack Moggy when she was injured by Birgittes bow. This Liandrin is pretty much right despite our being told she is a snake. Not liking Moiraine is pretty much the only "negative " we are truly given. Well that and the gentling at the beginning.
Seeing an AS go over to the shadow would be fascinating. I think I like that more. Because again, she is a cardboard cutout character. Ingtar was far more interesting because his reasons became clearer and clearer. So we might either see her go over or simply see yet more nuance with regard to DFs. Which I love in either case.
She was angry and furious and looked to tears when going at it with Logain. It's possible she feels guilt he died when she let him break free. Maybe she didn't expect him to be so strong. Still, you'd think she'd have her red sisters with her
I still refuse to believe it was Mat that killed the girl. Sentimental reasons, true. But also from a practical standpoint. We already have had Perrin accidentally kill someone. And that guilt has already made him the least interesting so far. Having another 2r folk kill someone (even if possessed) just seems overkill. Still, she was outside. But Mats blade is completely clean. So I lean no, but you never know.
Which I'd never thought I'd be saying about WOT again (aside from the ridiculous Nakomi or the pipe thing.) I love it!! And it's clear, these people love the series. The Easter eggs for readers are great fun and show it.
Random opinion: I honestly think Baalzamons vfx looks stupid. Out of everything, it is the weakest. He reminds me of the alien face in the opening credits of the x-files. Just looks cheap and like 90s lawnmower man cgi. Just my opinion.
RE: WoT on Prime Episode 4 SPOILERS - Jay Carpenter - 11-27-2021
Great episode. Big fan all around. This is not criticizing, just a few thoughts.
Logain is a little too righteous savior at the beginning. The hair, long robes, and the overwhelming piousness made him a little too Jesus and less False Dragon that everyone feared. Perhaps if they'd shown him actually conquering, or his army actually fighting the army of Ghealdan, it would have helped dispel the softness of his presence. Keep in mind. Logain is one of my favorites in the series. Not criticizing. Just my opinion. I've read that Rafe and co don't and usually can't bring in actors for a short episode only to have them disappear for an entire season. It's bad on the contracts and can't guarantee you'll get them back when you really need them. That's been the explanation behind why we haven't seen Elyas yet. He has a cameo early on then gone for ages. Hopefully this suggests Logain will feature throughout the rest of the season. Watching him go from holy man savior figure to depressed and hopeless to a loyal follower of Rand and badass Asha'man will be a good arc.
I don't think Logain was talking to past Dragons. The male and female taint-heads were made of taint-threads, suggesting they are manifestations of the taint not actual threads in the pattern talking to him. Even LTT talking to Rand ended up being madness and not the real LTT. I don't think they are whispers of the Dark One either. I think it's actual madness that he made up. The Elusha thing could be what he imagines to be a previous female dragon just as the male head could be some former male Dragon, but I think they're the manifestations of what he thinks are previous Dragons. The male channeler that Liandrin gentled had an imaginary friend too. I don't think they are Forsaken fucking with him either.
There were 7 full Aes Sedai in the camp. Not sure if the 7 includes Moirane or if she makes the 8th, but regardless, that's a shit ton of Sisters that it took to capture Logain. Liandrin and Alanna snuck into his tent and shielded him while he slept. It's definitely plausible that two strong Sisters can shield Logain, who at this point is probably not at his full strength. It's far easier to shield a superior channeler if they are not actively fighting it or actively holding onto the source. Keeping them shielded is also easier that way. I think it's plausible the two sisters were able to hold onto the shield despite his strength.
His escape seemed to me due to a disruption in the shielding when the Sisters were distracted. His smile was to me an indicator that he was waiting for them to be distracted. It only takes a small fluctuation in the shield to bust through, especially for a strong channeler like him. That's why they had to concentrate so hard, sitting in chairs staring at him and barely talking. Once the army attacked, the Sisters were shocked and distracted just long enough that he busted through. Not sure if the attack by Kerene's warder impacted any of that, but it's possible.
Once busted through, he's actively channeling. That's why even 3 Sisters couldn't re-shield him. It took a circle of Sisters linking with Liandrin to give her the strength to overcome him.
Moiraine was wobbly when she was first healed, but by the time she made it to the cave, she stated she'd regained enough of her strength to help, but there was a nasty scar on her shoulder. Kerene used the battlefield healing common to the Aes Sedai. Nynaeve healed with Restoration. She simultaneously healed everyone and they popped up fresh as daisies ready to full on channel. No nasty throat scars.
Nynaeve's brightness to me was not the light of a Ta'veren. It was the light of Saidar. Moiraine glowed with that same white backlight when fighting trollops in EF. Liandrin glowed a little but when she strained, her cheeks looked like they were burning from within. She was close to burning herself out. Nyn's brightness was the backlit glow of Saidar. That was her using her strength. Even Moiraine says Egwene and Elayne are candles compared to Nynaeve. Nice nod to that sentence when she said it too Logain.
I think we are going to get the show equivalent of RAFO about Mat and the Grinwells, who killed who. Course, it could be that Mat killed nobody and the blackness had started to seep through the farm and it killed the family. The little girl could have run away. Parents told her to run. Who knows why she was outside. But I am with ck. Don't think it was Mat. The dagger was clean and he was probably occupied with either chasing, hunting, or finding the Fade.
The fade emerged only after Mat transitioned out of zombie Mat and back into normal Mat. The Fade was afraid of the dagger/blackness. Could be what the Fade tracked to find Mat also. The Dark One's followers can sense the Shadar Logoth evil and vice versa. Although, in the books, the Fade drives the trollocs into Shadar Logoth, so it clearly isn't too afraid to confront it. Not sure what happened there. But I think it's a RAFO (or never find out).
All in all. Two big thumbs up.
RE: WoT on Prime Episode 4 SPOILERS - Thalia - 11-27-2021
Female false dragon is interesting, I could see that as an explanation of the name. The other thing I have now seen suggested is that what we saw was a visualisation of compulsion and not the madness at all. Why name the female voice but not the male though? If they were both false dragons from the past (real or madness), they could have picked a name from the lore for the man. Or not named them at all. I don’t have an answer to any of that, I’m just intrigued. I think it’s something we’re supposed to be questioning.
Until we know more, I’m not ruling out the possibility that certain male channelers are being manipulated and *they* are accepting it as a manifestation of the madness they know they have from the taint. Both times we’ve seen the madness so far has been in potential candidates for the DR
Or maybe Logain called the voice Elusha and it was just something cut or that we find out later >_<
We see Logain test the shield once before he breaks out. Either he was biding his time and just keeping them on their toes (which means he must have somehow known when the army arrived) or he was pushing and failing until that final time (and the army’s arrival was coincidence). I’ve decided I agree with Jaxen that it was the latter, he was waiting for the distraction.
Moiraine’s motivations and how far she is prepared to go depends entirely on what you think she believes about Logain. She only denounces him when she sees Kerene awake -- so did she keep him talking as a distraction, or did she suddenly change her tune because they were no longer alone and she couldn’t risk being exposed? Could be either. She seems genuinely not to know when she speaks to Lan. She was positive they were looking for a twenty year old before (to the point she dismissed Nynaeve for being too old), but her certainty seemed shaken to me -- she was clearly questioning the possibility of Logain being the real deal, at least at that point.
Alanna even shares her fears that they may gentle the DR when he’s meant to fight alongside them in the Last Battle. If she had any doubts at all, Moiraine would be considering that too.
If Moiraine believes Logain isn’t the DR, then she kept him talking until she had the back-up to successfully shield him. In that scenario I totally agree she wouldn’t have risked the camp to engineer the chance to speak to him, but may have used the opportunity the attack presented to be sure -- and promptly dismissed the possibility after their brief conversation. Perhaps the voices wanting something from Logain (her “the Wheel doesn’t want anything” comment) convinced her he was just mad, since it was the only reason he gave for being the DR.
If she believes he could be the DR though, then I think she would do whatever she thought was necessary. That would include facilitating an escape so that he could not be gentled, if she was really convinced. Liandrin herself points out they’re hundreds of miles away from Tar Valon still, and it’s unlikely they will be able to keep him shielded that long; it’s the whole reason she wants to break Tower law and gentle him there and then. Moiraine can’t risk that happening if she has any suspicion he might really be the DR. Honestly, I don’t think there’s a sacrifice she wouldn’t make.
I’m not sure we know what Moiraine believes, though, and I’m not sure what we’re supposed to think. But like I said, on a second watch I couldn’t see anything that suggested she was involved. It was the “we don’t have much time” dialogue that made me question it, but that just as easily fits with the scenario of her distracting him. So I think you’re right about that.
Liandrin must have known Logain’s strength because of holding the shield, she even comments on it when she gloats to Moiraine about how hard it is (after passing the burden on). If nothing else she knew she would not be able to shield or gentle him on her own. Even chasing down the boy at the beginning, she required her sisters’ support to do it. Not that I’m saying she definitely didn’t weaken the shield. Just that (ignoring what we know of her book character) I didn’t notice anything that suggests she did sabotage other than her very vocal opinion that they should just gentle him and be done with it. She’s respecting Tower law even if she’s unhappy about it.
About Nyn I sort of agree; I think we saw Nynaeve embracing saidar with such ferocity that she glowed like the sun. But Logain couldn’t see that because he’s a man. We haven’t gotten to the distinction between the powers much in the show yet (though it’s been confirmed that the power works the same). So why did he comment that she was so bright? That’s what I thought was ta’veren related, but apparently it was a manifestation of what she was doing with saidar, basically all the things at once, and that was visible to everyone. The sheer magnitude of her Healing would certainly show how strong she was. But it was the glow he spoke about specifically. Possibly he was being poetic and using Moiraine’s words to him moments before, using her metaphor in place of basically saying Nynaeve is super strong (and therefore potentially the DR).
I think the Grinwells will remain ambiguous. Also agree that it stands on the toes of Perrin’s story if he killed her unknowingly, however even if it was the fade Mat will know he failed to protect her. I don’t think they will go the guilt angle anyway, I think this will somehow lead into Mat’s fear of ending up like his parents and failing the people around him. To be clear, I don’t think Mat did it, but rather the dagger and/or the blackness did. Literally like possession. It’s his bloody hands and trance in the dream that makes me think it wasn’t the fade. Either way, they died because the boys stopped at the farm. So it’s their fault even if I’m wrong and it was the fade
I don't’ think the cgi is always the strongest, the quality seems quite inconsistent to me. It was mentioned in the ama and Rafe said something about covid having made things extra difficult and they couldn’t do all the normal processes. I think that might account for some of the choppiness as well to be honest. They had a HUGE break in filming and might not have been able to reshoot as much as they’d like. To be fair Ba’alzamon’s appearance is pretty much as described in the books. I think it’s a little cheesy but my husband thinks he’s creepy af. I wonder if they decided to make him more cgi and less man/realistic to lend itself to a mysterious DO impression.
RE: WoT on Prime Episode 4 SPOILERS - Mikhail - 11-27-2021
If Logain only acted when they were distracted, they have significantly powered him down. Which is possible. We know he is lesser than nynaeve now. Rand was shielded by an impossible to break 13 but it was held by 6. As it was happening he thought that no 2 or 3 sisters (something like that) could shield him. So yeah, much lower in strength. Which isn't a bad thing.
I lean toward the distraction only because it fits the time line and events we have. Shielded while asleep (so not planned). And unknowing of the outside world. His madness wouldn't know his army wasn't there yet. I *do* like that he let himself be held, but that doesn't answer why he escaped. Being taken to TV may have been a consequence of his being shielded and he was going to use it. But given the chance to be free....he took that. The more I think about it, the more I am unsure. Both are feasible.
As for the names...I think not revealing the name (and it only shows in the captioning and in the xray) is the showrunners choice. As such, revealing a name of a previous dragon would give it away. We only know one from the lore: LTT. All the other names (yurian stonebow or raoline darksbane) are false dragons.
And they are clearly not those beings. LTT's soul is currently walking around as Rand. Compulsion forms...that is interesting. Semirage and Graendal did it. Still, that's a departure from Ishamaels techniques. He's much more direct. Still, in service to chaos....
Yep, So can't be sure there, though I lean taint.
Mat...in possession cases it would not have been mat who did it. And his memory of that time becomes Swiss cheese from the dagger. So he might not carry that particular guilt (though it WAS their fault, ultimately.) But I still lean fade. Mat has a lot of character defining things going on so far and Rand few. Other than his breaking down the door, nothing about him is standing out as a possible dragon. Adding killing while possessed seems....overkill.
I am loving non book readers reactions and theorizing. Have been hearing all kinds of cool stuff. People declaring what they think is happening. I love the excitement it generates in new fans.
Re Logain Jesus... yeah, good catch jaxen. I thought Logain might be used to show the terror and danger of a male channeler. But he seems sane enough to elicit loyalty from former enemies. So it's an interesting take. I'm still Not getting the visceral fear of male channelers beyond words. No madness that results in obliteration like we *heard* in the novels (and then only in book 4, too late to color and inform Rands desire to flee from the power.) Rand is driven nearly mad trying to get away from it by book 3.Personally, it never translated as to why the power frightened him so much.
Be interesting if we have a moment similar to Perrin's to *show* why male channelers should be nightmare people.
But I think we are in good hands. Loving this turning of the wheel.
RE: WoT on Prime Episode 4 SPOILERS - Ascendancy - 11-27-2021
RJ stated that not everyone is reborn repeatedly, but only certain individuals, probably those with purpose and influential need by the pattern. The show is clearly leaning much more into that mythology by implying that everyone is reborn repeatedly. I prefer this angle much more as its easier to conceptualize rather than only certain special people get to come back. The Tinker philosophy speaks to that mythology quite strongly, and I agree they are more sympathetic as a result.
How was Logain able to see the light around Nynaeve? I think he literally saw light, although it’s likely some sort of tv wizardry to *show* how powerful Nynaeve was since nobody can read about each other “feeling” her power. Whether the light was a real light secondary to her flows or it was the light of Saidar or the light of a potential Ta’Veren, not sure. Although even if it was Ta’Veren, I don’t see how that makes any more sense than Saidar. Logain wouldn’t be able to see Ta’veren anyway, right? He never had that Talent as far as I remember.
I agree it’s possible Logain isn’t at his full strength yet, but I don’t really think that’s what’s going on just because it took the sisters linked, who are more powerful together than each individually, to overcome him.
In the X-Ray there are photos of the scenes and there’s one behind the scene photo that shows the Ba’alzaamon character in a full mask. So the Ba’al character is not CGI. Only his eyes are CGI. That was really cool to me and makes it much more real. My husband loves the Ba’alzamon character and thinks he’s CREEPY AF. He also loves Lan and was very upset Lan was going to die for a few moments. He also really likes Logain and assumes this is the end of Logain, of which he was also upset.