12-24-2021, 09:59 PM
CK you're allowed to not like things, and you're among friends, so please don't be apologetic for an opinion.
I think we saw a teeny tiny snippet of the AoL and not necessarily enough context to say for certain what may or may not have been changed for the show. After all, all we actually saw was a very brief discussion between two characters. The bore, the collam daan, the war of power, the rise of the Forsaken, the choedan khal -- that's a hell of a lot of context to squish in a scant few minutes of a cold open, and with a shit ton of made up terms to boot. The fact Latra describes herself as overwhelmed (and imperfect
) suggests there may be some missing context here. On the surface it does seem like what you said though; a decision made freely, not one made up against a wall.
For all we know, LTT didn't act how he wanted to then, the war of power and rise of the Forsaken went on to happen, and the rest played out in a similar fashion to the books. Latra wasn't Tamyrlin either so they've changed the power dynamic and that might explain why this conversation happens early and in civilised fashion. In the books she rises in prominence through her opposing Lews. Here, she's in a position of major power already. It sounds like he made a proposal and was denied. At this stage, we really don't know exactly what happens next, or how, we just know the world does indeed break via his actions.
But that's major (and unsupported) conjecture on my part, so let's just look at what we do know in the show. Setting aside gender stuff for a moment (and what happens in the books), he's the dragon and apparently has been presented with an opportunity to kill the DO once and for all. He's eager to take the shot. Wouldn't you be? ... And, uh, more importantly doesn't that kinda sound like a certain conversation between two very definitely female Aes Sedai we just heard? At least LTT was trained and competent and had his 100 companions. Moiraine and Suian just wanted to yeet a bunch of village kids into the Eye and hope for the best.
LTT's motivations clearly stemmed from his kid, which is a very human thing and not "male arrogance" at all imo. That seemed very relevant to me; it gave important (show) context. I thought it was very interesting he had a meeting with the Tamrylin in his nursery of all places, and that they made sure we understood that's what it was. I mean, that's stereotypical "women's space" for a start. The guy seemed super likeable, not just arrogant. Over confident in his title? Sure, but no more or less than Latra asserting that she'd be left to pick up the pieces of his pride. She's only right in this situation because we know what happens next. Otherwise, that was an equally arrogant thing to say. We absolutely do see two good people here who both believe they are making good decisions, the only thing we don't have is the urgency of a war backdrop. It's only a "male arrogance v female wisdom" scenario if you let it be.
I think it's important to remember that history is told by those who survive, and in this case that's the female Aes Sedai. Their opinions are prejudice not facts. Labelling LTT's actions as arrogance was one of Moiraine's very first lines, followed shortly by Liandrin's monologue about male filth. The viewer is conditioned to the same view right from the off. But those are flawed character opinions. Logain was presented as a messiah not a horror, despite what we are consistently told about male channelers. To be honest I think we've seen plenty to show how flawed the Tower is, and it really doesn't showcase "wise female acceptance and wisdom" either imo. Logain's gentling was a violation akin to rape. They had no right to do that to him.
Re: Moiraine not clarifying why she can't teach Rand to channel, I noticed that too. But she didn't lie. She says she can't and then says he will get more and more mad the more he touches the power. Both those things are true, and it sounds like she gave a reason "why" she can't teach him ... but actually those are just two statements. We haven't even gotten to the distinction between saidin and saidar in the show yet. And if I were her, with a dragon who literally knows nothing about how to channel and who is following me because he believes I have a plan (and my plan is shaky at best, lets be honest), I probably wouldn't admit that I can't teach him either. Talk about killing his hope and confidence. So she tells him the story about channeling through pain instead. It's the best she can do to help.
There's been several things in the show which have very much played on unreliable narrator. Aes Sedai misdirection, I think, is in particular responsible for this because our assumptions are rarely corrected.
Now we've seen the entire first season, I think many of the changes are because they are adapting the series as a whole, not book by book (or sequential plot by sequential plot). I think they are adapting things to fit overall themes in ways that sometimes just feels like major deviation, and sometimes because they're exploring them in ways Jordan didn't. It might be we don't see the payoff for some of the decisions until way way later (assuming it gets that far). I don't think it's coincidence for example that we saw Lews very clearly tie his decision with wanting a better world for his kid, and then Ishy tempting Rand with his hypothetical child (and Min's viewing having him holding a child).
This reply isn't an attempt to chance your mind btw, just wanted to share a different opinion.
On another note, I just noticed that Ishy was wearing LTT's gold ring.
I think we saw a teeny tiny snippet of the AoL and not necessarily enough context to say for certain what may or may not have been changed for the show. After all, all we actually saw was a very brief discussion between two characters. The bore, the collam daan, the war of power, the rise of the Forsaken, the choedan khal -- that's a hell of a lot of context to squish in a scant few minutes of a cold open, and with a shit ton of made up terms to boot. The fact Latra describes herself as overwhelmed (and imperfect
) suggests there may be some missing context here. On the surface it does seem like what you said though; a decision made freely, not one made up against a wall.For all we know, LTT didn't act how he wanted to then, the war of power and rise of the Forsaken went on to happen, and the rest played out in a similar fashion to the books. Latra wasn't Tamyrlin either so they've changed the power dynamic and that might explain why this conversation happens early and in civilised fashion. In the books she rises in prominence through her opposing Lews. Here, she's in a position of major power already. It sounds like he made a proposal and was denied. At this stage, we really don't know exactly what happens next, or how, we just know the world does indeed break via his actions.
But that's major (and unsupported) conjecture on my part, so let's just look at what we do know in the show. Setting aside gender stuff for a moment (and what happens in the books), he's the dragon and apparently has been presented with an opportunity to kill the DO once and for all. He's eager to take the shot. Wouldn't you be? ... And, uh, more importantly doesn't that kinda sound like a certain conversation between two very definitely female Aes Sedai we just heard? At least LTT was trained and competent and had his 100 companions. Moiraine and Suian just wanted to yeet a bunch of village kids into the Eye and hope for the best.
LTT's motivations clearly stemmed from his kid, which is a very human thing and not "male arrogance" at all imo. That seemed very relevant to me; it gave important (show) context. I thought it was very interesting he had a meeting with the Tamrylin in his nursery of all places, and that they made sure we understood that's what it was. I mean, that's stereotypical "women's space" for a start. The guy seemed super likeable, not just arrogant. Over confident in his title? Sure, but no more or less than Latra asserting that she'd be left to pick up the pieces of his pride. She's only right in this situation because we know what happens next. Otherwise, that was an equally arrogant thing to say. We absolutely do see two good people here who both believe they are making good decisions, the only thing we don't have is the urgency of a war backdrop. It's only a "male arrogance v female wisdom" scenario if you let it be.
I think it's important to remember that history is told by those who survive, and in this case that's the female Aes Sedai. Their opinions are prejudice not facts. Labelling LTT's actions as arrogance was one of Moiraine's very first lines, followed shortly by Liandrin's monologue about male filth. The viewer is conditioned to the same view right from the off. But those are flawed character opinions. Logain was presented as a messiah not a horror, despite what we are consistently told about male channelers. To be honest I think we've seen plenty to show how flawed the Tower is, and it really doesn't showcase "wise female acceptance and wisdom" either imo. Logain's gentling was a violation akin to rape. They had no right to do that to him.
Re: Moiraine not clarifying why she can't teach Rand to channel, I noticed that too. But she didn't lie. She says she can't and then says he will get more and more mad the more he touches the power. Both those things are true, and it sounds like she gave a reason "why" she can't teach him ... but actually those are just two statements. We haven't even gotten to the distinction between saidin and saidar in the show yet. And if I were her, with a dragon who literally knows nothing about how to channel and who is following me because he believes I have a plan (and my plan is shaky at best, lets be honest), I probably wouldn't admit that I can't teach him either. Talk about killing his hope and confidence. So she tells him the story about channeling through pain instead. It's the best she can do to help.
There's been several things in the show which have very much played on unreliable narrator. Aes Sedai misdirection, I think, is in particular responsible for this because our assumptions are rarely corrected.
Now we've seen the entire first season, I think many of the changes are because they are adapting the series as a whole, not book by book (or sequential plot by sequential plot). I think they are adapting things to fit overall themes in ways that sometimes just feels like major deviation, and sometimes because they're exploring them in ways Jordan didn't. It might be we don't see the payoff for some of the decisions until way way later (assuming it gets that far). I don't think it's coincidence for example that we saw Lews very clearly tie his decision with wanting a better world for his kid, and then Ishy tempting Rand with his hypothetical child (and Min's viewing having him holding a child).
This reply isn't an attempt to chance your mind btw, just wanted to share a different opinion.
On another note, I just noticed that Ishy was wearing LTT's gold ring.
![[Image: thal-banner-scaled.jpg]](http://thefirstage.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/thal-banner-scaled.jpg)