11-29-2021, 02:58 PM
That's some cool analysis ck.
So I realised something about why I was unsure about Moiraine's conversation with Logain. His answer about the voices didn't seem like enough of a tip off for Moiriane to know he’s a false dragon because, although it’s not a sign from the prophecy, *I* know Rand is going to be hearing LTT *facepalm*
I was way overthinking it. She literally wrote him off because he confirmed he was crazy, and she was relieved because she had been doubting herself.
By the way, I looked up the behind the scenes of Ba’al’s mask like Asc suggested and it’s way more creepy without the fire effect. I would NOT want to be seeing that in a dark corner of my room at night.
Oh, 100% they are in trouble with the Hall imo. They were forced to gentle a very high profile false dragon without trial, because they were too weak to actually get him to the Tower. Even somewhere as isolated as the Two Rivers had heard whispers of war in Ghealdan. They might not have broken the actual law (as Liandrin points out when she says if he broke free they could do it justifiably) but the most important thing will be how the Tower looks to the world, especially at a point in time when they are hiding their dwindling numbers. Being forced to gentle Logain makes the Tower look weak, and worse, the AS have just publicly shown they can’t even handle a false dragon, so how are they going to handle the real dragon if he attempts to break the world? And that’s not even considering the death of a senior and powerful AS (I think Kerene might have even been the Green’s Captain-General in New Spring).
The Tower might try to save face and go ahead with a farce of a trial for Logain, but the Hall isn’t going to be happy about such a huge fuck up. Liandrin was the one leading the circle and ultimately the one to make the call. I suspect she will proceed to throw Moiraine under the bus -- everything was running smoothly until “that” Blue showed up, after all.
Even taking into account the circumstances I reckon they really should have attempted to shield him again, first. It was almost in place with just two sisters prior to Stepin’s attack, and the others arrived soon after, so there’s no reason to think it wouldn’t be possible according to his strength in the show. Kerene seemed quite clear about it being up to the Amyrlin to judge him even though maintaining the shield was difficult. Was Liandrin’s heat-of-the-moment gentling justified? It was a very human reaction to the murder of a sister and the near murder of everyone else. Logain is dangerous, and mad. And it was also going to be the probable outcome of any trial at the Tower anyway. Some would argue yes, it was justified.
But Logain also seems in total awe of Nynaeve’s power in the preceding scene. He doesn’t look like he’s channeling anymore… and we can’t know for sure, but his reaction sure implies he might not have even fought being shielded at that point. He’s just realised he’s a false dragon and a madman. But how mad are you *really* if you recognise that? We are shown that he has a sense of nobility (this is why I liked that they showed him very messiah-like). And we are shown very clearly that he has the capability to fight his madness when he refuses to kill the king of Ghealdan because he has “room at his side for anyone, even his enemies”.
The Tower will not offer him the same magnanimity. Interesting, that.
Logain killed others, but it was also an act in his own defense, which is reasonable by the AS’s own laws for themselves. He fought the shield vehemently when he thought he was the DR, but clearly recognises himself being wrong when presented with evidence to the contrary. But he’s not given the chance to atone. He’s barely given the chance to process. If he COULD prove himself capable of fighting the madness (and a trial might have given him that chance), what right does the Tower have to take saidin away from him?
Gentling is a horrendous and (for now) irreversible act. Being forced to be complicit in that act is also pretty horrendous. I think that’s why we see Moiraine’s regretful expression after it’s done. Liandrin was the first to act and had control of the circle, so no one else had a choice in the matter. After the shock of what happened they had to do something. Only they didn’t mete out justice, they meted out revenge. The end might be the same (there’s no way the AS wouldn’t have gentled Logain after trial, whether he proved he was resisting the madness or not) so how important are the means? Liandrin’s decision was the difference between vigilantism and the justice of due process.
Of course, how broken the Tower’s process of justice is is a whole other matter.
I don’t think the Hall will discuss it that deeply. But I do continue to really love the shades of grey the show is putting in. The more I think about it, the more I’m glad they didn’t focus on the destructiveness and danger of male channelers. It would have diluted the impact of the ending, I think (well, for me anyway). Every time I watch Logain’s expression while it’s happening, and the way he is left crying and violated after, my heart breaks. Yet I can’t say there'd be many of us who wouldn’t have reacted like Liandrin in the same moment.
So I realised something about why I was unsure about Moiraine's conversation with Logain. His answer about the voices didn't seem like enough of a tip off for Moiriane to know he’s a false dragon because, although it’s not a sign from the prophecy, *I* know Rand is going to be hearing LTT *facepalm*
I was way overthinking it. She literally wrote him off because he confirmed he was crazy, and she was relieved because she had been doubting herself.
By the way, I looked up the behind the scenes of Ba’al’s mask like Asc suggested and it’s way more creepy without the fire effect. I would NOT want to be seeing that in a dark corner of my room at night.
Oh, 100% they are in trouble with the Hall imo. They were forced to gentle a very high profile false dragon without trial, because they were too weak to actually get him to the Tower. Even somewhere as isolated as the Two Rivers had heard whispers of war in Ghealdan. They might not have broken the actual law (as Liandrin points out when she says if he broke free they could do it justifiably) but the most important thing will be how the Tower looks to the world, especially at a point in time when they are hiding their dwindling numbers. Being forced to gentle Logain makes the Tower look weak, and worse, the AS have just publicly shown they can’t even handle a false dragon, so how are they going to handle the real dragon if he attempts to break the world? And that’s not even considering the death of a senior and powerful AS (I think Kerene might have even been the Green’s Captain-General in New Spring).
The Tower might try to save face and go ahead with a farce of a trial for Logain, but the Hall isn’t going to be happy about such a huge fuck up. Liandrin was the one leading the circle and ultimately the one to make the call. I suspect she will proceed to throw Moiraine under the bus -- everything was running smoothly until “that” Blue showed up, after all.
Even taking into account the circumstances I reckon they really should have attempted to shield him again, first. It was almost in place with just two sisters prior to Stepin’s attack, and the others arrived soon after, so there’s no reason to think it wouldn’t be possible according to his strength in the show. Kerene seemed quite clear about it being up to the Amyrlin to judge him even though maintaining the shield was difficult. Was Liandrin’s heat-of-the-moment gentling justified? It was a very human reaction to the murder of a sister and the near murder of everyone else. Logain is dangerous, and mad. And it was also going to be the probable outcome of any trial at the Tower anyway. Some would argue yes, it was justified.
But Logain also seems in total awe of Nynaeve’s power in the preceding scene. He doesn’t look like he’s channeling anymore… and we can’t know for sure, but his reaction sure implies he might not have even fought being shielded at that point. He’s just realised he’s a false dragon and a madman. But how mad are you *really* if you recognise that? We are shown that he has a sense of nobility (this is why I liked that they showed him very messiah-like). And we are shown very clearly that he has the capability to fight his madness when he refuses to kill the king of Ghealdan because he has “room at his side for anyone, even his enemies”.
The Tower will not offer him the same magnanimity. Interesting, that.
Logain killed others, but it was also an act in his own defense, which is reasonable by the AS’s own laws for themselves. He fought the shield vehemently when he thought he was the DR, but clearly recognises himself being wrong when presented with evidence to the contrary. But he’s not given the chance to atone. He’s barely given the chance to process. If he COULD prove himself capable of fighting the madness (and a trial might have given him that chance), what right does the Tower have to take saidin away from him?
Gentling is a horrendous and (for now) irreversible act. Being forced to be complicit in that act is also pretty horrendous. I think that’s why we see Moiraine’s regretful expression after it’s done. Liandrin was the first to act and had control of the circle, so no one else had a choice in the matter. After the shock of what happened they had to do something. Only they didn’t mete out justice, they meted out revenge. The end might be the same (there’s no way the AS wouldn’t have gentled Logain after trial, whether he proved he was resisting the madness or not) so how important are the means? Liandrin’s decision was the difference between vigilantism and the justice of due process.
Of course, how broken the Tower’s process of justice is is a whole other matter.
I don’t think the Hall will discuss it that deeply. But I do continue to really love the shades of grey the show is putting in. The more I think about it, the more I’m glad they didn’t focus on the destructiveness and danger of male channelers. It would have diluted the impact of the ending, I think (well, for me anyway). Every time I watch Logain’s expression while it’s happening, and the way he is left crying and violated after, my heart breaks. Yet I can’t say there'd be many of us who wouldn’t have reacted like Liandrin in the same moment.
![[Image: thal-banner-scaled.jpg]](http://thefirstage.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/thal-banner-scaled.jpg)