11-27-2021, 01:37 PM
Agreed on the tinker's philosophy making much more sense on the show. It'll make what's coming difficult watching. Also agree that the show generally exploring more of the religious/spiritual aspects of a world that believes in rebirth and giving it meaning to regular people is fantastic.
On foreshadowing and book lore, I can't see how anyone can watch and think the show isn't in the hands of someone who loves the books. We aren't even going to see Birgitte this season and no one's going to remember a doll's name, yet the symbolism and emotion of the scene isn't impacted while providing something more for book readers (it still means something and makes sense to non-book readers, I mean. Mat being his sisters' protector, and the doll being a protector/comforter of Else, and the loss of both at the end). So much feels rooted in the books. A little girl having a Birgitte doll makes so much sense for the world but it still could have just been a doll for the scene. Them using it with Mat is just excellent. I hadn't caught the dream reference. There is layer upon layer of detail.
I also wondered if the fade was hiding from Mat, it felt like Mat was hunting/had cornered it to me but I thought I'd just misinterpreted it. You're clearly meant to think the "I see you" is for the little girl at first (a nice play back to Mat using hide and seek to protect his sisters during Winternight, when he tells them to go hide at the tree). I knew trollocs were afraid of Shadar Logoth but couldn't remember anything about fades. I had forgotten about him nailing one to a door.
You can see it three ways imo:
Honestly, I think Mat did do something bad. Why would the little girl's body be outside? It's the middle of the night, and the rest of the family are inside. She might have run, but why would the fade waste time chasing her down? It's not a trolloc after meat. I think she was out there with Mat because she trusted/liked him after their earlier interaction.
Rand woke up suddenly much like Egwene did (when the fade was watching the group from the horse, before Shadar Logoth) so I agree it's likely a manifestation of them being channelers and sensing the DO's creatures and not necessarily because of the content of the dream. Mat might have had a dream, we see him in Rand's with bloody hands and in a trance. Given that Perrin is pummelling his wife with the hammer (the hand has a wedding ring) it seems likely they are having those dreams themselves -- Perrin's fear is one Rand wouldn't have any knowledge of. It might have woken Mat up too, but equally, he might have been pulled by the dagger's curse to get up and go kill the family or to hunt down the fade. Whatever woke Mat up he's clearly in the trance we see in the dream when we first see him in the house. He's not himself and that's the important thing.
I was wrong about Mat being bloody when he was in the house, it's only in the dream. The dagger was also clean when he pointed it.
I asked my husband who he thought had killed the family, and he said he wasn't sure if it was Mat or the demon (fade) but that the demon had clearly possessed Mat, so if it was him it was because he was made to do it.
The dagger's effect did seem very like a possession as opposed to a curse/corruption.
Interesting that Logain reacted to the shockwaves, I thought it was going to be the seeing ta'veren talent. The sun descriptor is exactly how Suian describes seeing ta'veren. I thought maybe they only glow that brightly when they are pulling strongly on the Pattern, especially in the context of a visual medium like tv. The show had just killed off two of its primary and most important characters. Nyn righting the Pattern with the healing would have been quite the feat to pull everything back into place. Nevermind. (I know Moiriane said there were only 4 ta'veren in 2R but I figured it was another case of unreliable information. Logain and Nyn are the wrong age but show other signs related to the DR. Moiriane is already pretty sceptical of her intel, not knowing whether the DR is male or female etc. I think we are going to see her struggling with uncertainty going forward).
Can I also just say that I just remembered that the Mashiara song lyrics reference their love being as strong and bright as the sun. Given what she's just done it brings a whole new level to the lyrics. I can't wait for the translations.
You think Liandrin compromised the shield? I assumed it was going to be her because of the books and the conspiracy mentioned about the Reds, but she was knocked out by Logain breaking free. That seems risky on her part, we know how strong Logain is, she could have easily been killed -- as Kerene indeed was. If she was going to weaken the shield for the purpose of creating an excuse to gentle Logain surely she would have had her Red sisters on hand for the aftermath, they'd only have one chance to get it right. Plus her anger at a sisters death seemed both righteous and believable to me, she risked burning herself out and it wasn't even an ajah sister. She got what she wanted sure but there was no evidence she was glad of the cost. I think the others would have noticed if she wasn't pulling her weight with the shield.
It would be an interesting choice for the show to take book reader's knowledge and subvert it. The rumour of the Reds was just a rumour after all.
When Moiraine showed up in the cave at first I thought she was just taking advantage of an opportunity to speak to him. But something in the dialogue made me think at the time she had been more instrumental in orchestrating it than that. Moiraine had already stated that she wanted to speak to him, which she can't do freely in the presence of her sisters, and she's not the type to just sit and wait for an opportunity to come along. She'd make one. I've only watched the episode once, though, so it's only an impression. He almost seemed to be expecting her? Or perhaps when she appeared he was expecting to sway her like he did the king of Ghealdan, his calm manner was the same. She still seemed sus though.
I agree that he was clearly strong enough to break free whenever he chose, whether the shield was compromised or not. Did he allow himself to be captured then, and if so why? To sway the Tower to his claim of being the DR? A trial would have allowed him to speak I guess. Why break free early then? Or maybe he was captured for real, and the AS just underestimated his downplay of strength with the shield maintenance. I don't think he actually attacks to kill until after it's clear Moiraine doesn't believe he's the DR either. But the biggest question for me is HOW did Logain know when to break free. His ears were plugged with Air according to Liandrin. He smiles like he knows it's time before he acts. Did the madness tell him or something else? How does he know the army arrived? How did the army find them?
I wonder if Moiraine was integral to any or all of those things. My best guess is that she actually unplugged his ears so that he could hear and therefore he knew when Kerene's wards were tripped. But I don't see how she could have done that without the others noticing (unless it was possibly in the scene with Alanna, she gets up and goes very close to him while Alanna is still seated and visibly concentrating. She even points out that Alanna is pumping for info due to their friendship, it would be very Moiraine to actually be using the opportunity to distract Alanna). She makes a point of consoling Lan that his mistakes are hers when they talk about him losing the kids. It sounds like forgiveness. But she also states that her mistakes are his as well. Moiraine admitting to mistakes?! She was up to something, something she knew was going to be a huge risk.
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if we find out she had something to do with the attack too. The warders are convinced Ghealdan turned tail, so the AS must believe the same. The warders are relaxed, even drinking. You could chalk it up to arrogance but that's a huge thing for them to get wrong considering who they're transporting and why. They even joke about it. Yet these people are dragonsworn, they believe Logain IS the DR and holds the future of their world in his hands. The AS had to have serious evidence they weren't being pursued, surely. Unless the army really had turned tail and someone tipped Ghealdan off to the location of the camp. It might just be limitations of the production, but it did seem far more like a raid than the march of an actual army. Armies can't just turn around quickly and surprise a camp of AS like that.
Also, is it possible Liandrin isn't Black at this point? If we find out why/when she turns I don't remember. But maybe we'll see it play out for the show. Only wondering because it dilutes the impact of Verin if they pull it like a surprise, but if we see her fall (or at least are made to understand and sympathise with her motivations for turning to the shadow) it won't make every other AS an instant suspect when they're introduced. Of course, we haven't seen much of Liandrin yet, our impressions of her might change quickly. At the moment, based purely on what we see on screen, she seems to very much believe in the Red's cause and the Tower. She's zealous like the Whitecloaks, but her visceral reaction to Kerene's death redeemed her prejudices imo. She's not just a bad egg like she is in the books.
We've heard compelling reasons for becoming a DF with Dana. It would be interesting to see someone actually make the choice to turn to the Shadow.
I wasn't sure if her seeking out Nynaeve was because she sensed a channeler and wanted to recruit, or if she had Black ajah orders. Both seem possible. Her reaction to Nynaeve now will be telling. A female Dragon would be a very different thing to a Red than a Black. I can't see why the Reds wouldn't rally for her, a woman using saidar has a far slimmer chance of breaking the world again. It's literally the best thing they could hope for.
In the trailer we hear Suian asking Moiraine to swear her oaths, it can't be a flashback to her raising because they were novices/accepted together. It looks to me she has to do it publicly to reaffirm her loyalty. Either Moiraine is going to get sole blame for Logain, or Liandrin and Alanna are going to be made to swear too. Gonna be a problem for Liandrin if so.
Also interesting that they didn't chose to use Logain to show the danger of the madness and taint. He was very sympathetic and noble.
On foreshadowing and book lore, I can't see how anyone can watch and think the show isn't in the hands of someone who loves the books. We aren't even going to see Birgitte this season and no one's going to remember a doll's name, yet the symbolism and emotion of the scene isn't impacted while providing something more for book readers (it still means something and makes sense to non-book readers, I mean. Mat being his sisters' protector, and the doll being a protector/comforter of Else, and the loss of both at the end). So much feels rooted in the books. A little girl having a Birgitte doll makes so much sense for the world but it still could have just been a doll for the scene. Them using it with Mat is just excellent. I hadn't caught the dream reference. There is layer upon layer of detail.
I also wondered if the fade was hiding from Mat, it felt like Mat was hunting/had cornered it to me but I thought I'd just misinterpreted it. You're clearly meant to think the "I see you" is for the little girl at first (a nice play back to Mat using hide and seek to protect his sisters during Winternight, when he tells them to go hide at the tree). I knew trollocs were afraid of Shadar Logoth but couldn't remember anything about fades. I had forgotten about him nailing one to a door.
You can see it three ways imo:
- That the fade killed the family, and was scared off/interrupted by Mat and cowed by the dagger
- That Mat killed the family in his trance, before the dagger became aware of the fade and hunted it down (perhaps the fade followed because Mat separated off; easy pickings until it became aware of the dagger and realised its mistake)
- That the fade killed the family and Mat killed the little girl in a trance (separate locations), then the dagger either hunted the fade down or interrupted it.
Honestly, I think Mat did do something bad. Why would the little girl's body be outside? It's the middle of the night, and the rest of the family are inside. She might have run, but why would the fade waste time chasing her down? It's not a trolloc after meat. I think she was out there with Mat because she trusted/liked him after their earlier interaction.
Rand woke up suddenly much like Egwene did (when the fade was watching the group from the horse, before Shadar Logoth) so I agree it's likely a manifestation of them being channelers and sensing the DO's creatures and not necessarily because of the content of the dream. Mat might have had a dream, we see him in Rand's with bloody hands and in a trance. Given that Perrin is pummelling his wife with the hammer (the hand has a wedding ring) it seems likely they are having those dreams themselves -- Perrin's fear is one Rand wouldn't have any knowledge of. It might have woken Mat up too, but equally, he might have been pulled by the dagger's curse to get up and go kill the family or to hunt down the fade. Whatever woke Mat up he's clearly in the trance we see in the dream when we first see him in the house. He's not himself and that's the important thing.
I was wrong about Mat being bloody when he was in the house, it's only in the dream. The dagger was also clean when he pointed it.
I asked my husband who he thought had killed the family, and he said he wasn't sure if it was Mat or the demon (fade) but that the demon had clearly possessed Mat, so if it was him it was because he was made to do it.
The dagger's effect did seem very like a possession as opposed to a curse/corruption.
Interesting that Logain reacted to the shockwaves, I thought it was going to be the seeing ta'veren talent. The sun descriptor is exactly how Suian describes seeing ta'veren. I thought maybe they only glow that brightly when they are pulling strongly on the Pattern, especially in the context of a visual medium like tv. The show had just killed off two of its primary and most important characters. Nyn righting the Pattern with the healing would have been quite the feat to pull everything back into place. Nevermind. (I know Moiriane said there were only 4 ta'veren in 2R but I figured it was another case of unreliable information. Logain and Nyn are the wrong age but show other signs related to the DR. Moiriane is already pretty sceptical of her intel, not knowing whether the DR is male or female etc. I think we are going to see her struggling with uncertainty going forward).
Can I also just say that I just remembered that the Mashiara song lyrics reference their love being as strong and bright as the sun. Given what she's just done it brings a whole new level to the lyrics. I can't wait for the translations.
You think Liandrin compromised the shield? I assumed it was going to be her because of the books and the conspiracy mentioned about the Reds, but she was knocked out by Logain breaking free. That seems risky on her part, we know how strong Logain is, she could have easily been killed -- as Kerene indeed was. If she was going to weaken the shield for the purpose of creating an excuse to gentle Logain surely she would have had her Red sisters on hand for the aftermath, they'd only have one chance to get it right. Plus her anger at a sisters death seemed both righteous and believable to me, she risked burning herself out and it wasn't even an ajah sister. She got what she wanted sure but there was no evidence she was glad of the cost. I think the others would have noticed if she wasn't pulling her weight with the shield.
It would be an interesting choice for the show to take book reader's knowledge and subvert it. The rumour of the Reds was just a rumour after all.
When Moiraine showed up in the cave at first I thought she was just taking advantage of an opportunity to speak to him. But something in the dialogue made me think at the time she had been more instrumental in orchestrating it than that. Moiraine had already stated that she wanted to speak to him, which she can't do freely in the presence of her sisters, and she's not the type to just sit and wait for an opportunity to come along. She'd make one. I've only watched the episode once, though, so it's only an impression. He almost seemed to be expecting her? Or perhaps when she appeared he was expecting to sway her like he did the king of Ghealdan, his calm manner was the same. She still seemed sus though.
I agree that he was clearly strong enough to break free whenever he chose, whether the shield was compromised or not. Did he allow himself to be captured then, and if so why? To sway the Tower to his claim of being the DR? A trial would have allowed him to speak I guess. Why break free early then? Or maybe he was captured for real, and the AS just underestimated his downplay of strength with the shield maintenance. I don't think he actually attacks to kill until after it's clear Moiraine doesn't believe he's the DR either. But the biggest question for me is HOW did Logain know when to break free. His ears were plugged with Air according to Liandrin. He smiles like he knows it's time before he acts. Did the madness tell him or something else? How does he know the army arrived? How did the army find them?
I wonder if Moiraine was integral to any or all of those things. My best guess is that she actually unplugged his ears so that he could hear and therefore he knew when Kerene's wards were tripped. But I don't see how she could have done that without the others noticing (unless it was possibly in the scene with Alanna, she gets up and goes very close to him while Alanna is still seated and visibly concentrating. She even points out that Alanna is pumping for info due to their friendship, it would be very Moiraine to actually be using the opportunity to distract Alanna). She makes a point of consoling Lan that his mistakes are hers when they talk about him losing the kids. It sounds like forgiveness. But she also states that her mistakes are his as well. Moiraine admitting to mistakes?! She was up to something, something she knew was going to be a huge risk.
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if we find out she had something to do with the attack too. The warders are convinced Ghealdan turned tail, so the AS must believe the same. The warders are relaxed, even drinking. You could chalk it up to arrogance but that's a huge thing for them to get wrong considering who they're transporting and why. They even joke about it. Yet these people are dragonsworn, they believe Logain IS the DR and holds the future of their world in his hands. The AS had to have serious evidence they weren't being pursued, surely. Unless the army really had turned tail and someone tipped Ghealdan off to the location of the camp. It might just be limitations of the production, but it did seem far more like a raid than the march of an actual army. Armies can't just turn around quickly and surprise a camp of AS like that.
Also, is it possible Liandrin isn't Black at this point? If we find out why/when she turns I don't remember. But maybe we'll see it play out for the show. Only wondering because it dilutes the impact of Verin if they pull it like a surprise, but if we see her fall (or at least are made to understand and sympathise with her motivations for turning to the shadow) it won't make every other AS an instant suspect when they're introduced. Of course, we haven't seen much of Liandrin yet, our impressions of her might change quickly. At the moment, based purely on what we see on screen, she seems to very much believe in the Red's cause and the Tower. She's zealous like the Whitecloaks, but her visceral reaction to Kerene's death redeemed her prejudices imo. She's not just a bad egg like she is in the books.
We've heard compelling reasons for becoming a DF with Dana. It would be interesting to see someone actually make the choice to turn to the Shadow.
I wasn't sure if her seeking out Nynaeve was because she sensed a channeler and wanted to recruit, or if she had Black ajah orders. Both seem possible. Her reaction to Nynaeve now will be telling. A female Dragon would be a very different thing to a Red than a Black. I can't see why the Reds wouldn't rally for her, a woman using saidar has a far slimmer chance of breaking the world again. It's literally the best thing they could hope for.
In the trailer we hear Suian asking Moiraine to swear her oaths, it can't be a flashback to her raising because they were novices/accepted together. It looks to me she has to do it publicly to reaffirm her loyalty. Either Moiraine is going to get sole blame for Logain, or Liandrin and Alanna are going to be made to swear too. Gonna be a problem for Liandrin if so.
Also interesting that they didn't chose to use Logain to show the danger of the madness and taint. He was very sympathetic and noble.
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