WoT on Prime Episode 4 SPOILERS

[Mikhail]

Logain could see Taveren. He commented to Nynaeve in LoC that while caged and being marched through the streets of Caemlyn he saw a man glowing as the sun and he laughed knowing that man would cause more breakage than him. That was Rand. The talent is confirmed in the companion to the WoT.

But one of the production consultants said it was part of her weave that created the light effect and wasn't actual weaves of sardar.

Yeah I like the rebirth angle. Having it be specific souls seems....idk. somehow now quite egalitarian. I much prefer this way.

Baalzamon...well that's 2 non readers who love him. And you two. I guess it just looks odd to me. Not sure what it is about his head that seems wonky. I'll get over it.

Loving your husbands' reactions.

[Thalia]

Former false dragons was your idea ck, haha.

The show gives every indication that it’s just the taint, apart from having named one of the voices. There’s little obvious reason for that if it’s just madness. It’s not a person, it’s not sentient. If Logain later refers to “Elusha” as being one of the voices he used to hear then fair enough, I concede. The fact they mention Logain having a sister (who sounds like she betrayed him) maybe means we are going to get more show-only backstory for him, so perhaps a non-book named character connects with that. Otherwise I think it’s too odd to just brush off.

The fact the figures were the One Power wreathed in the taint doesn’t suggest external compulsion to me, I thought it was Logain’s power we were seeing, but if it were compulsion that would be an interesting twist. I can see why someone suggested it as a possibility. Especially since LTT sounded mad in Rand’s head, complete with maniacal laughing. These voices were sweet-talking and manipulative. Very different. And very much like the tactics of certain Forsaken.

If it’s not just taint madness, my money is on it being something to do with Lanfear while she’s still in the Bore but close to release, else just released (I have no idea on the book timeline for that), and we just saw her first attempt to hunt down and manipulate Lews Therin.

The identities of the Forsaken were one of the biggest mysteries of the books. We may see different aliases in the show, not instead of their book ones, but in addition to. Let me cling to my crackpot theory  

Personally I quite liked Jesus-Logain. I was expecting them to use him to highlight the danger of a false dragon too (or even just a male channeler), in fact I was expecting a proper antagonist, but I didn’t mind what we got instead. It made his gentling all the more emotionally devastating that he wasn’t a tyrant, and I thought it highlighted how imbalanced the world is. 

Perhaps they’re saving the carnage for the LTT flashback. Or they’re saving it for Rand himself. 

The identity of the DR is a bigger thing than I thought it was going to be. Because of that they don’t really have to focus on the dangers of male channelers yet, because for all the viewer knows the dragon could be a woman anyway. We have seen enough about male channelers for world building purposes. A female dragon would still be prophesied to save or destroy the world of course but it’s not at all the same thing and the dynamic (for good or ill) is changed as a result. Revealing Rand as the DR and a male channeler might be a double whammy shock factor thing, especially if they double down on healing Nynaeve’s candidacy in the meantime. They might only choose to address exactly how awful it is when it actually happens. Here is our saviour, already going mad and blowing the world to bits? I also can’t imagine them introducing the two forsaken at the Eye (can’t remember the names), it doesn’t make sense for the finale to be with anyone but Ba’alzamon. So maybe they will incorporate elements of the Falme sky-battle (minus the Seanchan and Horn parts, and probably located somewhere else) and up the civilian casualty?

Not having really shown the danger of a male channeler so far could also just be a budget constraint thing, they’ve gone all out with spectacle so far but have still presumably saved the meatiest part of the budget for episodes 7 and 8 (critics have only been shown up to 6, and 8 has no details released at all, not even the episode name).

Omg Asc, our husbands said the same thing! Ba’alzamon is creepy af and Lan is the favourite, he was also quite distraught when he thought Lan was dying.

[Mikhail]

I *DID* say false female dragons. ;-) a slip. I didn't mean false. Was on the brain as I spoke. I always felt LTT was just a manifestation of the taint and Rands ltt memories bleeding through- the construct theory. My thoughts are that Logain might just have taint inspired constructs. We saw it with the 1st male channeler in the show. I wonder if that's an in show depiction of madness. Or maybe one of many. Be cool to see. That his madness manifests as previous personalities that were the dragon (or claim to be, in his mind.)

Yeah, it's a slow build to the madness. I feel comfortable with their choices and am not disappointed it hasn't been what I expected. I like the surprises. The mystery is a blast even though I KNOW it's Rand.

Lanfear....hmm...daughter of the night who claimed to own the world of dreams. She appeared as Selene in book 2 and was I'm a deep part if the bore so that time past little for her (as opposed to Ishamael, Aginor and Balthamel.) I know Rafe said there will be forsaken and given her role at least up to book 5, it would be cool to see her. Post 5, as Cyndane, her role is rather lame. (And in a lot of ways she is the crazy ex girlfriend trope. I saw one YouTube comment that they might merge one or 2 forsaken (or ignore them). He thought Semiraghe and Lanfear could he worked into one.)

I do hope to see forsaken compulsion. We know that demandred made it out by book 2 to (retcon) train Taim. And Rahvin had to get into position in Gaebril during book 2 as did Sammael. Given the compression of time and story, they may be out and about even tho they've not announced any casting (likely playing it quiet.)

[Ascendancy]

Logain could see Taveren. He commented to Nynaeve in LoC that while caged and being marched through the streets of Caemlyn he saw a man glowing as the sun and he laughed knowing that man would cause more breakage than him. That was Rand. The talent is confirmed in the companion to the WoT.

A ha! Whoops. My bad. Now you say that, Mikhail, I remember that. Hopefully our characters will all reunite in Caemlyn in the next episode. Here are my predictions. 

Ep 5 - (Blood Calls Blood) The boys + Moiraine and co make it to Caemlyn. We meet Loial. Logain is paraded through the city. We meet Elayne and Elaida. We meet Elyas and Egwene and Perrin decide to part ways with the Tinkers to go toward Caemlyn but before they go, cross paths with the CotL. Perrin kills the Whitecloaks. 

Ep 6 - (The Flame of Tar Valon) - We see in the trailers that Moiraine, Egwene and Nyn are here for at least a scene. This is probably where Moiraine is required to re-swear the oaths. I'm hoping this is where Egwene is in the pool with the colors swirling from her head. Although, I hope that pool is *not* the eye of the world pool of Saidin but is instead something to do with her Arches. What I don't understand is where Rand, mat and Perrin are while the girls are in the Tower. They must all reunite again in order to enter the Ways to get to Shienar. Well actually I bet Mat gets healed from the dagger's poison in this episode. Where Rand and Perrin are.. not sure.

Ep 7 - (The Dark Along the Ways) This was the episode that B.S. said he was most excited to see. We get to Far Dara. It's seen in the trailer. So we must make it there.

Ep 8 (Newly released title! The Eye of the world!) This is where it all goes down! Dragon banner, The Horn, Saidin, and hopefully some baddie mcBad Forsaken.

[Mikhail]

Logain could see Taveren. He commented to Nynaeve in LoC that while caged and being marched through the streets of Caemlyn he saw a man glowing as the sun and he laughed knowing that man would cause more breakage than him. That was Rand. The talent is confirmed in the companion to the WoT.

A ha! Whoops. My bad. Now you say that, Mikhail, I remember that. Hopefully our characters will all reunite in Caemlyn in the next episode. Here are my predictions. 

Ep 5 - (Blood Calls Blood) The boys + Moiraine and co make it to Caemlyn. We meet Loial. Logain is paraded through the city. We meet Elayne and Elaida. We meet Elyas and Egwene and Perrin decide to part ways with the Tinkers to go toward Caemlyn but before they go, cross paths with the CotL. Perrin kills the Whitecloaks. 

Ep 6 - (The Flame of Tar Valon) - We see in the trailers that Moiraine, Egwene and Nyn are here for at least a scene. This is probably where Moiraine is required to re-swear the oaths. I'm hoping this is where Egwene is in the pool with the colors swirling from her head. Although, I hope that pool is *not* the eye of the world pool of Saidin but is instead something to do with her Arches. What I don't understand is where Rand, mat and Perrin are while the girls are in the Tower. They must all reunite again in order to enter the Ways to get to Shienar. Well actually I bet Mat gets healed from the dagger's poison in this episode. Where Rand and Perrin are.. not sure.

Ep 7 - (The Dark Along the Ways) This was the episode that B.S. said he was most excited to see. We get to Far Dara. It's seen in the trailer. So we must make it there.

Ep 8 (Newly released title! The Eye of the world!) This is where it all goes down! Dragon banner, The Horn, Saidin, and hopefully some baddie mcBad Forsaken.

So from what I understand, there is no caemlyn in this season. Elayne and Elaida have been cast for next season. I'm not sure where they will reunite as well as meet loial  . I believe Min is supposed to show this season too (btw Aviendha has been cast for season 2).

That's what makes this so interesting, because we have things happening and people meeting but not exactly like it did in the books. We are just as clueless as non readers, in some ways. I sort of enjoy that, as long as they hit those single character beats and major events.

And I am dying to hear them mention a forsaken. (The rain is when the dark one beats simiraghe until she weeps. Graendal comes for little girls who don't finish their vegetables.) To see one tho....and not aginor and balthamel. They were both lame and a let down.

[Thalia]

I feel confident we'll see Forsaken in unexpected ways, especially in off page places they may have been. We also already know Lanfear won't be able to masquerade as Else Grinwell, for instance. But I've been wrong about plenty so we'll see lol. Rafe has mentioned before that he's a big fan.

Oh setting up the Forsaken that way is an excellent idea! I do hope they do something like that. Incorporating them into myth and songs and stuff too.

Confirmed no Caemlyn until season 2, because budget and actors we don't see again for a while. Tar Valon is replacing it. Thematically it was felt more important for us to understand AS and the WT.

I reckon next ep they will meet Loial who will replace Moiraine identifying the dagger and he will persuade them they must go to the Tower for healing (despite Thom's warnings that Mat must stay away from those women). My best guess is that they will still meet Loial in Basel Gill's Inn but that it will either be relocated to Tar Valon or somewhere else along the way.

I think it's possible we could be told in dialogue about Logain's parade through Caemlyn, and that Gill's Inn IS still there, but that we just don't see any of the city yet (or any of the royals scenes). Especially if we stay tight to Mat's perspective, staying in the inn sick while Rand searches for help. They could do the missing scenes in flashback season 2 if they wanted, or show them from Elayne and Elaida's perspective as an opener and intro to those characters (and probably Gaebril setup).

I'm not sure it's likely though because I would have expected Caemlyn to be mentioned by Thom. He could have easily told the boys that's where they were headed, and to find the Queen's Blessing if they were separated, but he didn't. The only place the kids have been told to go, and where they expect to meet up, is Tar Valon.

Elyas is another (suspected) move to season 2, so I think we skip straight to Valda and the Whitecloaks there. Reckon Perrin will go full wolf (including eyes). He obviously has the heightened smell already. Without Elyas he's going to be terrified. They won't be rescued, they'll have to save themselves. I think Perrin and Egwene will be the main focus/action of this ep.

M and co will go straight to the Tower. We probably have the AS funeral in this ep too, or maybe at the start of the next (based on Nyn being there but no sign of Eg).

Ep 6 is the Tar Valon episode. I am REALLY looking forward to this one. I think we will get flashbacks to New Spring here and flesh out Moiraine and Suian's close relationship. Definitely something with Suian and Egwene. I assume Mat's healing too (no idea what Rand and Perrin are doing now, but maybe they'll see more of the city with Loial, and probably Fain will show up again -- potentially a good way for Perrin to show off his sense of smell if he notices Fain lurking about. I can see them cutting Hurin later).

I think the pool is part of the women's ceremony (we see Nyn cleaning the rocks). If it's Arches it's IN the arches. I think it might be flashback though, would they raise Eg before we've met Elayne? With the expedited timeline, maybe. If it's part of the accepted ceremony but they used the same set I am disappointed.

Ep 7 I think we will have Tam's fever dream and blood snow flashback. Possibly more flashbacks too, I'm interested to see how they weave them into the narrative (my guess is something will happen in the ways that will force them to confront the past. Or screw with time in general. Maybe it will have something to do with the way they present the ways itself, or the way they depict Machin shin). This must be the 'oh shit' episode where everything starts to come together but the stakes ramp up. Definitely arrival at Fal Dara. We will meet Min.

8 - oh, interesting that they finally released the title .. and it's the name of the bloody book lol. I have no idea what will happen here, other than the obvious showdown, just going to enjoy the ride.

[Ascendancy]

Ascendancy

Logain could see Taveren. He commented to Nynaeve in LoC that while caged and being marched through the streets of Caemlyn he saw a man glowing as the sun and he laughed knowing that man would cause more breakage than him. That was Rand. The talent is confirmed in the companion to the WoT.

A ha! Whoops. My bad. Now you say that, Mikhail, I remember that. Hopefully our characters will all reunite in Caemlyn in the next episode. Here are my predictions. 

Ep 5 - (Blood Calls Blood) The boys + Moiraine and co make it to Caemlyn. We meet Loial. Logain is paraded through the city. We meet Elayne and Elaida. We meet Elyas and Egwene and Perrin decide to part ways with the Tinkers to go toward Caemlyn but before they go, cross paths with the CotL. Perrin kills the Whitecloaks. 

Ep 6 - (The Flame of Tar Valon) - We see in the trailers that Moiraine, Egwene and Nyn are here for at least a scene. This is probably where Moiraine is required to re-swear the oaths. I'm hoping this is where Egwene is in the pool with the colors swirling from her head. Although, I hope that pool is *not* the eye of the world pool of Saidin but is instead something to do with her Arches. What I don't understand is where Rand, mat and Perrin are while the girls are in the Tower. They must all reunite again in order to enter the Ways to get to Shienar. Well actually I bet Mat gets healed from the dagger's poison in this episode. Where Rand and Perrin are.. not sure.

Ep 7 - (The Dark Along the Ways) This was the episode that B.S. said he was most excited to see. We get to Far Dara. It's seen in the trailer. So we must make it there.

Ep 8 (Newly released title! The Eye of the world!) This is where it all goes down! Dragon banner, The Horn, Saidin, and hopefully some baddie mcBad Forsaken.


So from what I understand, there is no caemlyn in this season. Elayne and Elaida have been cast for next season. I'm not sure where they will reunite as well as meet loial  . I believe Min is supposed to show this season too (btw Aviendha has been cast for season 2).

That's what makes this so interesting, because we have things happening and people meeting but not exactly like it did in the books. We are just as clueless as non readers, in some ways. I sort of enjoy that, as long as they hit those single character beats and major events.

And I am dying to hear them mention a forsaken. (The rain is when the dark one beats simiraghe until she weeps. Graendal comes for little girls who don't finish their vegetables.) To see one tho....and not aginor and balthamel. They were both lame and a let down.

See now thats what I get for posting while exhausted. I knew that about Caemlyn, Elayne, Elaida. Facepalm.

Okay so yeah, my prediction is next episode will be about Perrin, Egwene, wolves and Whitecloaks primarily. Mat and Rand secondarily. Moiraine and co journeying to Tar Valon. 

Now that we've seen episode 4, I recognize all the Aes Sedai standing in front of the Amyrlin as the Sisters from the camp having caught Logain. Moiraine, Alanna and Liandrin are front and center. So, are they getting in trouble or being praised? Probably in trouble.

[Mikhail]

This is pretty cool. Some series fans are using Baysian analysis (beginning with a starting position, over time refine your beliefs as more data becomes available) to try to figure out who the dragon reborn is as each episode drops more pieces of information.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/r4..._reborn_a/

Egwene seems to be at the top of the list so far. But not by a huge amount. Despite Nynaeve's showing in episode 4, she still appears at the bottom. I think the prophecy timing (20 years ago) is keeping her from jumping ahead.

What is also interesting is their interpretation of some of the events. For example, Mat is collecting quest items.

It is fun to watch people try to figure it out., The showrunners have done a great job building the mystery.

[Thalia]

That's some cool analysis ck.

So I realised something about why I was unsure about Moiraine's conversation with Logain. His answer about the voices didn't seem like enough of a tip off for Moiriane to know he’s a false dragon because, although it’s not a sign from the prophecy, *I* know Rand is going to be hearing LTT *facepalm*

I was way overthinking it. She literally wrote him off because he confirmed he was crazy, and she was relieved because she had been doubting herself.

By the way, I looked up the behind the scenes of Ba’al’s mask like Asc suggested and it’s way more creepy without the fire effect. I would NOT want to be seeing that in a dark corner of my room at night.

Oh, 100% they are in trouble with the Hall imo. They were forced to gentle a very high profile false dragon without trial, because they were too weak to actually get him to the Tower. Even somewhere as isolated as the Two Rivers had heard whispers of war in Ghealdan. They might not have broken the actual law (as Liandrin points out when she says if he broke free they could do it justifiably) but the most important thing will be how the Tower looks to the world, especially at a point in time when they are hiding their dwindling numbers. Being forced to gentle Logain makes the Tower look weak, and worse, the AS have just publicly shown they can’t even handle a false dragon, so how are they going to handle the real dragon if he attempts to break the world? And that’s not even considering the death of a senior and powerful AS (I think Kerene might have even been the Green’s Captain-General in New Spring).

The Tower might try to save face and go ahead with a farce of a trial for Logain, but the Hall isn’t going to be happy about such a huge fuck up. Liandrin was the one leading the circle and ultimately the one to make the call. I suspect she will proceed to throw Moiraine under the bus -- everything was running smoothly until “that” Blue showed up, after all. 

Even taking into account the circumstances I reckon they really should have attempted to shield him again, first. It was almost in place with just two sisters prior to Stepin’s attack, and the others arrived soon after, so there’s no reason to think it wouldn’t be possible according to his strength in the show. Kerene seemed quite clear about it being up to the Amyrlin to judge him even though maintaining the shield was difficult. Was Liandrin’s heat-of-the-moment gentling justified? It was a very human reaction to the murder of a sister and the near murder of everyone else. Logain is dangerous, and mad. And it was also going to be the probable outcome of any trial at the Tower anyway. Some would argue yes, it was justified.

But Logain also seems in total awe of Nynaeve’s power in the preceding scene. He doesn’t look like he’s channeling anymore… and we can’t know for sure, but his reaction sure implies he might not have even fought being shielded at that point. He’s just realised he’s a false dragon and a madman. But how mad are you *really* if you recognise that? We are shown that he has a sense of nobility (this is why I liked that they showed him very messiah-like). And we are shown very clearly that he has the capability to fight his madness when he refuses to kill the king of Ghealdan because he has “room at his side for anyone, even his enemies”. 

The Tower will not offer him the same magnanimity. Interesting, that.

Logain killed others, but it was also an act in his own defense, which is reasonable by the AS’s own laws for themselves. He fought the shield vehemently when he thought he was the DR, but clearly recognises himself being wrong when presented with evidence to the contrary. But he’s not given the chance to atone. He’s barely given the chance to process. If he COULD prove himself capable of fighting the madness (and a trial might have given him that chance), what right does the Tower have to take saidin away from him? 

Gentling is a horrendous and (for now) irreversible act. Being forced to be complicit in that act is also pretty horrendous. I think that’s why we see Moiraine’s regretful expression after it’s done. Liandrin was the first to act and had control of the circle, so no one else had a choice in the matter. After the shock of what happened they had to do something. Only they didn’t mete out justice, they meted out revenge. The end might be the same (there’s no way the AS wouldn’t have gentled Logain after trial, whether he proved he was resisting the madness or not) so how important are the means? Liandrin’s decision was the difference between vigilantism and the justice of due process.

Of course, how broken the Tower’s process of justice is is a whole other matter.

I don’t think the Hall will discuss it that deeply. But I do continue to really love the shades of grey the show is putting in. The more I think about it, the more I’m glad they didn’t focus on the destructiveness and danger of male channelers. It would have diluted the impact of the ending, I think (well, for me anyway). Every time I watch Logain’s expression while it’s happening, and the way he is left crying and violated after, my heart breaks. Yet I can’t say there'd be many of us who wouldn’t have reacted like Liandrin in the same moment.

[Thalia]

I'm sorry guys, you get the brunt of all my conjecturing because no one else will understand what on earth I'm going on about XD

I think there might actually be evidence Liandrin sabotaged the shield, but not to break Logain free. When he first repels the shield both Kerene and Liandrin are distracted by Kerene's wards being tripped, so I think it happens on the merits of his own strength and their brief lapse in concentration. 

A little later, when Moiraine, Kerene and Liandrin are trying to force the shield back on him, we see him penetrate it with the attack that kills Kerene. The shield is bulging outward with the effort, which is how I think Kerene anticipates the attack, but *should* Logain be able to do that? I can't work out if Kerene looks surprised, or if she's checking to see if the others have noticed the attack/are splitting their weaves to protect themselves (or both). It doesn't seem an unreasonable feat for Logain given his strength, except that afterwards Moiraine and Liandrin manage to put him under such duress he's forced to his knees -- yet they now have one less sister adding to the effort. How does he manage to pierce the shield one moment, then struggles the next? Did it just take that much effort?

I think Kerene's strength was more compromised than she admitted to Moiraine, and possibly for more reasons than just Logain (no one else is struggling with simple weaves, despite Alanna and Liandrin also taking their share of the burden, plus her warder's concern for her. She's murdered by Blacks in the books because she's one of the originals searching for the dragon, maybe that's also relevant). So was Liandrin slacking off, not knowing that Kerene is weaker than she should be? We know for sure Liandrin is putting in all her strength after Kerene's death because she risks burning out, and two sisters are now able to accomplish what three struggled to do -- they haven't quite got the shield in place but Logain looks like he's losing. And he doesn't pierce the shield again -- he's only able to attack because of Stepin's axes being close enough to explode with saidin. Was Liandrin holding back earlier in the hope that Kerene would realise he couldn't be contained, and would give the order for gentling? I don't think she intended for Kerene to die, but I wonder if she grasped what she thought was an opportunity and it went very awry.

I'm not sure though. What did everyone else think?

EDIT: okay, on like the millionth review, I'm not actually sure if Kerene only protects Moiraine and Liandrin protects herself. We see Logain's weave bounce off them both, but you can only really see the barrier in front of Moiraine. Since it's hard to tell, maybe that's a negligible detail. But if we assume Kerene noticed the attack because she's Green, and Moiraine clearly noticed nothing, then Liandrin must have been expecting it because she compromised the shield. That's not just slacking off in the hope she'll get her way and be allowed to gentle Logain.

It makes more narrative sense if Korene could only pick one person to save (if you could pick two, surely you'd save yourself and M and throw the Red to the wolves XD). Moiraine's speech about the raging sun may have been partly for Korene's benefit, because now Korene knows Moiraine is searching for the dragon (which in the books was Korene's goal too). And if Korene had any doubts about her strength failing and ultimately that she wasn't going to be able to complete the search, she'd definitely choose to save Moiraine.

Of course, if that's right then Liandrin is almost certainly Black Ajah already. Still one hell of a risky plan though.