WOT on Prime

[Armande]

I hate you Aiden ;-) I was disappointed Phoenix wasn't on the list.

Yeah the identity of the dragon being a mystery doesn't bother me. It doesn't mean that it WONT be Rand. Matt from the Dusty Wheel commented reminded people that people 'in world' are unreliable narrators. Just because Moiraine says its true or not true doesn't mean it is. RJ was pretty concrete that souls were gendered (and that tied in their ability to channel saidin or saidar.) Showrunners can decided to expand the metaphysics to make souls genderless, but that leaves the question as to how it is decided who channels which power.

Regarding the Dragon himself, RJ said it was the same male soul and other than Arangar/Balthamel, we've never seen one type of soul go into another. That's not to say it can't happen. But i hope we don't see the story overtaken with insertion of modern themes. I've been supremely disappointed in Apples Foundation series because it feels like whatever David Goyer, et al, wanted to say usurped Asimov's ideas. His series was not filmable as written (all dialog and exposition- idea driven and spanning centuries) so I had no issue with making changes to make characters to follow through out, more physical action, a single antagonist in Empire, and so on. It was necessary. But in order to make it relevant, GOyer said he decided to insert modern themes and ideas, such as climate change denial. And a host of other changes. In the process, the actual story Asimov wrote is barely there.

I have better hopes for WOT. Everyone involved seems to be a fan and have respect for the world. And the things they've done- the attention to detail, down to the sigils we see on rings or the way the taint (renamed the corruption for what I think are comical reasons) is depicted or how the soundtrack words are all in the old tongue- yeah, that's the kind of dedication and attention to detail I like to see. Because it gives me hope that they will keep the spirit of the characters.

I will say that it has made me remember how I really used to love Egwene. That was not expected. But what I have seen reminds me of why I liked her so much before she became a....never mind., I won't go off on another rant.

BTW, as Thal mentioned, the soundtracks are online. I am liking the diverse styles. Reminds me of Battlestar Galactica. Here is "Mashiara":

[Thalia]

I think souls will still be gendered, but that the body they end up in might not match. Like you said, the DO set a precedent for it being a thing that can happen, so who is to say it can't happen naturally? Though it would imply a DR Egwene would channel saidin. Acceptance that a male soul could be reborn into a female body (and vice versa) might be as much as they mean to imply. It's a simple change that then accepts the possibility of trans people in randland (well, actually, it accepts trans people in a world in which the only trans rep previously was a joke by the DO, which is an important distinction).

It's definitely a balance that (speaking generally now) can be done well or to the ruination of the whole project, but equally I think there are things that *should* be adjusted/addressed for a modern audience. Gender is a huge theme in wot, and something that modern views have changed on -- and that should be acknowledged imo. What I've seen of behind the scene stuff makes me think they will do okay even if I don't agree or like every change. Plus the fact Harriet is on board. I haven't seen or read Foundation but I've heard the same criticisms of the show. Its definitely a valid reason to be nervous, and one I feel nervous about too. Ultimately it will be deviation from the books, or at least further exploration of its themes, and until we get to watch for ourselves that's an unknown quantity.

The taint thing makes me laugh. It's not slang over here I dont think. The Amazon prime page still describes it as tainted rather than corrupted.

I'm loving the music. Both of the new ones sound like they could be something Thom plays (probably just because of the guitar intros, especially in old blood). I really want lyric translations! The first line in lost love sounds like "ashandarei" which I can think of no context for lol

[Armande]

It's an interesting question. If we are considering a more modern day look at gender, what do you with people who identify with genders other than male or female. Non-binary and others. Saidin and Saidar are discrete powers. One cannot channel both in different percentages. So while it is easy to see how you might display a male-gendered soul channeling saiding in a female body, what about a nonbinary person? It someone who identifies as both. If they are channelers...what do they channel? Or do you kind of ignore those possibilities? I'm not arguing in either direction. Just having that be possible widens the world in a way that still feels organic, rather than forced or wokeness.

Having the possibility that the male dragon soul *might* have been in Egwene doesn't really bother me (and my distaste for Egwene has never been a secret ;-) ). Rand's story is his own (reluctant savior type, running away from what that might mean, then being what he thinks he needs to be to do the task) and Egwene's is her own (eager and hungry to be in the thick of things, never shying away from more power and responsibility). I trust that Rand and his story won't be put as second fiddle to egwene's, which I think is the real reason a lot have been worried about the gender neutral (one of you 4/5) wording by Moiraine. They don't want Mary Sue/Black hole Sue Egwene to take over.

I have far more reason to trust the WOT crew than what Goyer and co have done with Foundation (finished ep 8 Saturday). It frustrates because there is so much good there- some of the decisions they made actually make a ton of sense and illustrate the place the Empire was in and why Seldon's predictions were so important. But they betray the entire spirit of the series by making the crucial events and decisions and characters all be outliers- unpredicted and unknowable. That contradicts the very essence of Asimov's use of psychohistory. I won't go into more, but the point is, one of the core themes and part of the world is completely contradicted by the characters they have created.

The WOT crew seem to understand the themes of balance. While he may have fumbled in his execution (his portrayal of women- to say nothing of lesbians and 'lipstick lesbians' that at times bordered on caricatures) balance was key. I hope they remember that.

Hah! I heard Ashandarei too! I was wondering why that would be there! the Battlestar Galactica soundtracks are gorgeous, even having led to live concerts. Interesting to see if that happens with the WOT soundtrack. Hopefully, we hear more variety of world music, as Lauren mentioned.

[Ascendancy]

I agree with the previous statements about the potential of Egwene being DR. I kind of had an impression that 1) they are including her to help marketing and raising the stakes that the Emond Fielders are the DR; or 2) just because Moiraine says it could only mean that she is unaware of the nuances of rebirth.

I mean, think about it, the studying of souls and being reborn thousands of years later is not something that the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends could easily study. How do they even know/assume that gendered-souls are always reborn into a matching body? That's a pretty big assumption. The fact that a 3rd Age Aes Sedai is just going off of finding babies that were born within a very specific time range of a few months implies that Moiraine is looking for any baby regardless of gender. We the readers know the "rules" of rebirth, but how do 3rd Age Aes Sedai know the same rules? Aka< unreliable narrator comes in to play.

Regardless, I'm not too bothered by the idea. Rand is clearly still the dragon reborn. It also raises the stakes that we won't learn which of the Emond Fielders is the DR until something happens to definitely state that the channeler of a certain age (Egwene vs Rand) is in fact the DR will be revealed at the Eye of the World. The finding of the Dragon Banner, the response to the Eye/untainted Saidin/ and the reaction of the Forsaken to Rand. it raises the stakes there too. Alternatively, we may not know exactly who the DR is until Rand claims Callandor in the Stone of Tear and starts fulfilling prophecy. Finally, we could definitely find out that the DR is Rand when he battles Ba'alzy in the sky above Tarabon (finale of season 1????). That keeps the non-reader fan in suspense of who is the dragon reborn for the entire first season.

Anyway, I'm done rambling.

Super jealous of the early screening tickets. We have flights that go to Chicago that are fairly reasonable in price, but due to the pandemic, I'm not comfortable with that yet. Although I am taking PTO on Nov 19 to binge watch the first 3 episodes. Did you all know that 3 episodes are dropping on the same day?

[Ascendancy]

Also, I had another thought. CK, your questions about the wide variety of gender identities does not align with a binary gendered one power system is spot on. I think that is a reflection of the late 80's and early 90's when RJ was creating this magic system. A gender spectrum is not something that was accepted or even readily discussed at that time period. I think a binary (male vs female) one power does not align with the gender spectrum on which one may identify and is a major limitation of the era in which the series was written. I don't know how the show runners could address that mismatch without completely re-writing the entire rules of the One Power, which would undermine the entire concept of one half of the power being tainted (corrupted? lol: another modern word that modern viewers can conceptualize compared to taint). I think tainted Saidin implies a different sort of judgement, like there is something inherently wrong with Saidin. Corrupted implies more of an external force has damaged Saidin, which is less offensive/judgemental.

[Thalia]

re: the music, I think Lost Love might be a Lan/Nyn song. Specifically his conflict over her. The only other word I could pick out in the first line sounds like cuebiyar, which is heart. So I wonder if the first line is something about his heart belonging to the blade (or that kinda thing, not sure why they would have specifically used ashandarei but maybe it fit better than alternative words). Since the tracks are operas my best guess is it's the scene Lan tells her he will hate the man she chooses because it's not him, but no woman should marry knowing she will become a widow.

I agree, they won't mix or dilute the stories of the main guys (or at least I'd be very surprised if they did).

Actually, that's another reason to use Egwene -- if the DR must be a channeler, which is implied, then the other boys will rule themselves out at some point. So if they do want to extend the mystery of who the DR is then Egwene is the only way to do it.

Next week will be a long week avoiding spoilers :/

edit to add: I've seen discussion that it might just be "the one power" with no distinction between male and female halves. I can't recall if they've used saidin and saidar in marketing or talking about the show. I'm not sure how they would explain the "corruption" in that case though.

Another edit, haha: Okay, I just checked the page on Amazon, and the entry about the breaking just says the Dark One tainted the One Power, driving all male Aes Sedai mad (and it does use the term tainted, not corrupted). So I guess they could leave it as that and never really explain further.

[Armande]

you know, the more I think about it, the better I like the mystery of who the dragon reborn is. Making it possible (at least as far as 3rd age AS think) that it might be Egwene could be an interesting angle. Each of the 3 (and now 4, with Egwene) have something unique about them. Rand's luck, Matt's speaking the old tongue outside of Shadar Logoth, Perrins talking to wolves, and Egwene's channeling. It makes the question more paramount when we see that a real false dragon is capable of. I love that we will SEE why people fear male channelers. (I hope they play up the danger of the madness for logain, even though he hadn't gone mad. Imagining what a madman with that power could do makes Rand's fear of the power and terror at being the dragon more visceral) 

I am reminded of when Rand snuck up on Egwene and Moiraine's nightly discussions and Egwene was asking about the fall and trying to blame it on the men who wanted power. Moiraine corrected her, that she was thinking the female AS would be all good and pure. And that wasn't the case. Being the dragon is a terrifying thought- salvation and destruction seemed to go hand in hand, the idea that having the dragon verses the dark one was a toss up. And egwene...nah. No, that changes things too much. While it may be a mystery to the viewer, the key component of egwenes personality is that she is NEVER afraid of seeking more- responsibility, power, whatever. Whether it is being the best water hauler (EVAR!!!) or the Amyrlin, it's all the same drive. She would never fear being the dragon.

Rand was the opposite. He rejected the idea because he feared hurting people and bringing destruction (which makes sense both given how he was raised and also the emotional baggage he carried from his life as LTT.) As I said, two very differing people and paths and one cannot be swapped for the other. I would argue that is why Rand is the dragon. The person you want in charge is the person who fears being in charge (or put another way, watch out for the person campaigning for the powerful position. Or whatever the saying is.) Use of that power would be done with respect. Rand's destroying the Choedan Kal is the quintessential example. There is no universe where Egwene would have done that.

I don't like the idea that the one power be merged into one force and that it is MEN who are tainted (I will always use that word, now, simply because I think it is funny now :-P ). There's a judgement there. What makes it dangerous for males if females access the same power? Why so specific? But at the same time, it does raise a question of gender spectrums and the power. Now, to be sure, we are talking about metaphysics to make representation of a very tiny minority (non-binary folk, a subset of trans people, themselves a subset of the LGBTQ community which is a small subset of people as a whole.) I think the easiest explanation is that some gendered souls might be born into the wrong body and so the channeling will show that. But in cases where a person doesn't identify as either, they can still channel one or the other. It is a bit messy, but it doesn't require rewriting metaphysics, which touches at the core of the series.

God, I dream of seeing Fal Dara on the screen. Truly. Book 2 was when I fell hard for the series. I was out of breath when I finished reading it at 1 am in early October of 1993. Just blown away. (Then I made myself read 3 chapters of the Bible- Proverbs as it happens- before I let myself move on to book 3 that weekend ;-) I was so obsessed with it so that's how I tried to stay balanced.) Seeing Mat blow the horn and the heroes return, seeing the damane being used, the battle across the sky...that would be glorious.

Totally agree on the song. Definitely Lan singing to Nynaeve (figuratively speaking). 

BTW, I am tickled that WatchMojo has a "Top 10 things you missed in the WOT trailer":


I was telling someone how cool it would be to see WOT take its place in pop culture. It has the same feel as GOT but feels more hopeful and ennobling. It walks the same line as Star Wars or the MCU (or Ted Lasso, for that matter!) And I confess, I would love to see kids dress up as Aiel for halloween- little girls as Maidens of the Spear. Kid's names Aviendha or Nynave. Stupid, in a way. But not really. These things touch and stay with us. All of us here are a perfect case in point.

[Thalia]

They might simply explain it that the one power is accessed differently by different genders, and it's the point of male access that is tainted when male aes sedai tried to cage the DO. It was described as an oily film anyway, not a direct change to saidin, so it's not so great a change. I don't think they will delve into great detail if they do something like that, but I wouldn't be surprised if they make at least some adjustments that allow for greater possibility (so for example a non binary person could channel the one power but we don't know the details of how because it's not plot relevant). I think they will try to move away from strict binaries while still keeping and addressing the themes of balance. How far they will go with that I dunno. Getting rid of the distinction between saidin and saidar isn't my favourite possibility, but I think they could do it in such a way that didn't make that much impact on the plot, especially given that the show is a visual medium. I could see Someshta and the Eye going the way of Tom Bombadil tbh, the only important thing is getting the banner, horn, and identifying the DR.

[Ascendancy]

I'm watching the Watch Mojo video and its super interesting! thanks for sharing it. 

I did finally see something I'd not noticed before. At 5:03 in the Watch Mojo video there's a shot of a Fade on his horse and you can see that the rain is falling hard around him, but not immediately over him! I never noticed that detail before and if I recall, the rain doesn't fall on Fades?

[Ascendancy]

New clip posted today! "Listen to the wind" clip shows Egwene and Nyn in the white tower!