WoT on Prime episode 6 SPOILERS

[Thalia]

SPOILERS for episode 6
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Huh. Interesting. I’m not actually sure what I think. It’s definitely one that will need a rewatch.

That ending though.

I loved the cold intro and Moiraine and Suian’s relationship. I figured the portrait in Moiraine’s room was going to be something to do with communicating with Suian, but the actual implementation seemed strange, because it felt like they both met in a fishing hut in Tear. Like, what? Since when can ter’angreal do that? Was it supposed to be TAR?

I’m gonna go ahead and assume that Ishy is sending Suian false dreams (or maybe one of the others, I’m not convinced he’s the only one able to touch the world right now). My prediction is that they will tie in whatever happens at the Eye with the obvious release of the Forsaken. Not really sure why they think the DO’s prison is there, unless it’s a result of misinformation (or they changed it I suppose).

Loved the obvious difference between the face Suian presents as the Amyrlin and the clothes she chooses to wear in her study.

If the Waygate is opened by a channeler, how did the trollocs get through? 

Also found it curious that Moiraine said she didn’t know Nynaeve was a channeler prior to the healing, but still recognised the potential in Egwene.

I don’t think Mat is clear of the dagger influence. Did we actually see what happened to it? All I remember is that Lan covered it up. I suspect from the “he’ll get corrupted if he touches it again'' comment that what she did may be more akin to the reprieve of the books. Which explains why he stayed behind.

Logain’s performance was stand-out. Poor Loial felt underutilised though.

Who is Liandrin meeting up with in the city? I think she’s getting her information on the E5 from Fain.

I guess the flashbacks are going to come as a result of the characters all getting the chance to share stories (from Moiraine’s line of dialogue as they left)? The reunion was quite sweet but the exposition a little clunky. I wonder if the Ways themselves might prove to be a much more horror-esque sequence. Although Machin Shin was different to Mashadar, they run the risk of feeling very same-y as a threat.

I dunno. I have no idea how they’re going to pull all this together at this point.

It was nice to see Moiraine’s Eyes and Ears network in play, and it had some great bits to it, but I’m not sure if an episode entirely from her POV right now comes at the expense of the E5, especially after the last episode (happy to wait and see how the final two episodes roll out though). I think it might be one I enjoy watching more when the whole season is done. From the perspective of someone who hasn’t read the books, I think it was important for plot purposes.

Either the hour slot isn’t long enough, or there only being 8 episodes has just compressed things too much. I mostly like the direction they take, it’s not that, but I don’t feel like we’re getting everything we should.

[Ascendancy]

I loved it. I'll go into more detail later when I can write more, but namely I really like the refreshing take of having it be more Moiraine's POV episode. We never got that kind of thing especially in book 1. 

Re, Rand. I don't know, it doesn't bother me even though he's my favorite character. We have a long way to go with Rand and looking back in book 1, he wasn't an active protagonist anyway. He was only reactive and defensive. That doesn't translate well imo to screen. So while we miss the Rand scenes, there's not much for him *to do* except talk about Egwene. Yes they've expanded that concept for the show, but it comes at the off-set of getting more scenes from people like Siuan. 

HOLY COW I loved Siuan. I always thought she was like kinda boring in the book (sorry!) but I am sure that's because we don't know her as a character, just the almighty Amyrlin (who then gets deposed anyway), so any agency she had was undermined later. This Siuan was so awesome. The cold open really showed off her character, which the show runners are doing great at explaining.

Overall pacing is a little clunky now and then, but I think that it is entirely forgivable. Second, we know there were difficulties with producing the season due to the pandemic.  It's only season 1: the Sopranos, GoT, SATC, Mandalorian, MCU's Loki were great series had the same thing with season 1 with its up's and down's too. They may be experts and Rafe a superfan, but everyone has to find their way and that takes time and experience. It just doesn't seem that bad to me. I trust that by the end of season 8 (fingers crossed), it'll all make sense and the hindsight will be 20/20. 

For now, I love that we get to see so much more than we would otherwise from book 1. I even had a dream last night that I was going to fly to Greece and was getting on the plane only to realize that I didn't have my copy of EotW and I freaked out and refused to get on the plane until I went to the airport bookstore and bought it. So clearly I am a little deranged and been thinking about this way too much. But after watching it last night, I was all smiles... episode 7 (which I think Sanderson said was his favorite) and 8 are going to be epic. (plus its always possible they could be longer than an hour...)

[Thalia]

I forgive the clunky editing and pacing for those reasons, they are minor things (especially in a first season) and I definitely watch WoT more critically than I would another show. It does still trip me up every single time though. Nearly every episode feels like it would be stronger for just a little extra breathing room. But that's not necessarily their fault, they have to work with what they have to work with, and I think they do a good job. The heart is there, which is most important.

Fully agree about the show giving us glimpses we never got to see in the books. I love that approach. Personally I found the opening of GoT boring because it was too scene for scene. But I'm not fully convinced atm that the E5 have been given the opportunity to fully react to their situation. We've been building up to their reunion since the split, and while Moiraine did give them a little more context now for why they should continue to follow her, I would have liked to see some scenes of the E5 alone before they decided to ride to the waygate. It was the same criticism I had of episode 1 though. And this ep was pretty much exclusively from Moiraine's pov so perhaps they felt it didn't fit.

It might well be that we get more of that from them in the Ways anyway, and they will do it in a way that feels satisfying. Ep 5 and 6 appear to be the New Spring influenced eps so I guess the focus will change now.

Oh Suian, Suian, Suian! I loved her too (though I like her in the books too). I also found the oath rod scene really touching, because the way Moiraine rephrased the oath (as well as sensibly making it to Suian directly rather than the Amyrlin Seat) sounded almost like marriage vows. These two are suddenly in a situation where they expect never to see each other again. And their fingers touching *cries* It was beautiful (and I suspect they will use it to lead into Suian's downfall *cries again*).

It wasn't that I disliked the content. It just wasn't quite what I expected them to focus exclusively on (even ep5 had the Whitecloak Eg/Perrin stuff) But how it works iis impossible judge until we can see the season in its entirety. I like that they made the decision to have Moiraine propell the first season but this felt E5 lite to even me.

Buuuuuut also I've only watched it once and my opinion usually improves after the second lol.

I'm excited to see the rest of your thoughts. Book plot aside it was awesome to see more of the Tower and AS politics.

[Mikhail]

I've had a hard time figuring out how I feel about this. And part of it is that we don't see the whole thing in context of the whole. I love the characterization, period. They've done a wonderful job fleshing people out. That open was heartbreaking. And the oath....I saw it as a marriage vow as well. Their relationship was fantastic and really humanized people.

Thal mentioned that this season was Moiraine's quest. That came to me during the middle of the episode as I realized that we weren't going to see any real further characterization of the E5. Rand continues to have a bit of personality and back bone ("you could just say thank you"- loved that.) And Asc is right. A lot of the 1st book is Rand reacting. Not that that is a good thing. We've traded, though, some of the wonder and fear of the newly opening world and threat for Moiraine and the AS story. I think I miss getting to see things from their perspective.

They are kids, really, thrust out into the world with the fate of all put on their shoulders and we see very little of them grappling with what that means. And as I type this, I find that I can articulate this feeling better. That was RJ's impetus to write the whole damn series. What if someone tapped you on the shoulder and said you had to save everyone. He thought the way Frodo and others responded so meekly wasn't very realistic. Instead, he wanted to deal with the story of someone who struggles with that role.

and I miss seeing them deal with this fear and terror. Moiraine's story matters and is beautifully done. Truly, it's the characterization that keeps me hooked. But knowing what we could be seeing- should be because it was such an integral part of the story- things like Rand's fear about Tam's ravings, Perrin's discomfort with having killed a man and suddenly being able to talk to wolves. Nynaeve's unreasonable anger at M for disrupting their lives, Egwene's hunger for more than the simple villager's life. We see very little of any of these internal reactions (though Egwene is portrayed best.)

I keep thinking, this is just the 1st season. We have time. Rand spends 2 more books fighting his destiny. Same with Perrin. And Nynaeve. (notice not a whole lot of mat, here for obvious reasons. He was a lump until he was healed.)

But SOOOOO much stuff still has to happen. So much story. And the pacing and story IS suffering from having to do so much in so little time- esp when we CANT see stuff from the books because we need to service a series and series themes and perspectives (which I don't begrudge.)

Those other early shows (except for GOT) had the advantage that they weren't based off of preexisting and well known material. They could start out with a length and tell a suitable story within that alloted time. This isn't like that. Mandalorian could affort to breath and no one would complain about wasting time and not getting on with it. Because we had no idea where it was going. WOT can't do that.

There are other changes and things I can talk about. But some will simply have to wait (how waygate's work- otherwise, their entire purpose for existing has been completely changed. And then what the hell do you need an ogier for? There was a reason Loial had a connection to them. How will Fain follow?)

And what happened with Mat? Manufactured tension is supremely lame. Ending with him not going and then Moiraine reopening so he can go is a stupid way to create and resolve a cliffhanger. but now having mat not show (or be there at the eye given what is supposed to go down IN STORY) just added a new plot wrinkle that will take time to resolve....

And we dont have that much time, damnit!!!

I am unsure and need to watch again. But that last REALLY bothers me.

I am still digesting it all.

[Thalia]

Perfectly expressed CK.

Regarding Mat it's possibly a decision forced because of the actor being replaced, we don't know the details of whether he finished the series or why he left. Fain is following the dagger. Could they transfer those scenes to Tar Valon? Does Mat do anything significant actually at the Eye that couldn't be addressed later/at another location? I'm fairly convinced Mat's dagger connection isn't severed and that's why be didn't follow them into the ways though. The fact they (I think) linked Fain and Liandrin together may mean they plan have plans there too. I dunno.

I think Loial is supposed to be the navigator once they're inside. They didn't make that clear at all in the episode though, Loial was barely used at all.

[Mikhail]

Yeah, Barney leaving threw a wrinkle in things. But realistically, they should have just bit the bullet and have the actor change at the start of season 2. Not write him out of the ending. Yeah, Mat LITERALLY does nothing at the eye. But M tells Agelmar that the DO is stirring and they have to go to the Eye. It's one of the 3 boys and whatever has to happen will happen. Having Mat bow out early makes it lucky when it turns out he WASNT the dragon reborn and wasnt needed. it just flies in the face of all the set up that he isn't the dragon- it's limp and anti-climactic.

Having M reopen the ways then makes this a stupid and unnecessary cliff hanger. Cliff hangers should be meaningful or they are transparent audience manipulation.

Another option is Mat meeting with Fain (who i agree is the one Liandrin is meeting with) and Fain opens the ways, explaining that the ways are for non channeler use as well. (I think I read they merged ways and portal stones, but i am not sure. Portal stones are literally used in only 2 books and may not even be necessary if the plot is streamlines- despite the fact that that story was crucial to Rand coming into his own as a leader and also introduced Selene.) On the one hand, that's an interesting twist, to have Mat and Fain go, but if Mat was gonna go, why not just have him go? And doesn't that just add MORE STUFF that isn't in the book that has to happen just to get everyone to the Eye?

Look, the Eye had to change. On rereads especially, the ending made less and less sense. Again, RJ was still figuring out his rules. The situation doesn't really mesh very well with the more grounded and engineering like level of rigor his world attained. Then, too, having a pool of untainted Saidin only works if you KNOW the dragon will be born a man and will need it. Unless, ok, perhaps they assume Saidar can be used as well for the Dragon to finish. M commented that perhaps the Eye was REALLY meant to guard the seal, the horn and the dragon banner. That it wasn't what they thought it was for.

With all of that in mind, getting rid of the Eye and saying the E5 have to be there because whatever has to be done there will require them, well, that makes some sense. But they idea of the Dragon slaying the DO, or just throwing him at the DO is dumb, esp when you have all these prophecies of what he has to do. While we won't necessarily SEE them, they are clearly there, and big in enough that it was a big book Rand looked at. When Rand wanted to get to SG in the opening chaps of book 3, to bleed on the rocks, M calls him out, saying that is one of MANY prophecies to fulfill. The tack Rafe and co have taken is that there are multiple versions and competing prophecies and traditions. But having multiple types does not mean that the only real thing is to chuck the dragon at the DO and call it a day.

Again, there is so much to do! We are finally about to be at a parallel place in the books with the timing fairly right....and then Mat decides to bugger off. It just seems completely unnecessary when we are talking a literal 2 hours left of story.

But, I am talking as if I know. I haven't seen them. But I don't know how they can do this without the ending feeling a cop out or too rushed. WE keep saying rushed. What we mean is that we know things have to happen- story beats and crucial elements. And we are speeding along and picking them up almost as after thoughts. Where is Perrin's WC blood feud story now? That drove a LOT of Perrin interactions. The better ones, honestly. Now, we don't see that. Egwene stabbed Valda, not him.

Instead we slow and breath for things that- while awesome- weren't part of the story, at least the one being told. Again, yes. This is a series, not a single book. So they had to be put in. Fine. All the stuff I saw was great, honestly.

But the Mat thing? That honestly makes no sense and I don't know how you resolve it (a completely unnecessary dramatic point) without consuming time we honestly don't have. If the Ways can only be used by channeling, how did the Trollocs get to the 2R? And why do they need an Ogier guide?

talk about rambling....;-)

EDIT:


So from what I've seen online, Barney Harris left while filming the end of season. (And that is incredibly odd, so I hope that things are alright. Leaving in the middle of a season is not common.) So in hindsight, it makes some sense. They had to do something with what they had. With that in mind, I can see their hands were tied... Which mitigates my frustration.

[Thalia]

No, I mean we don't know if the actor left literally in the middle of filming. I think Fal Dara was filmed after they came back from the covid break, so they may not have had an actor for Mat available at all. By that time I imagine there was some time pressure from Amazon to get this season done and ready after all the delays.

I'm purely guessing at whether him staying behind was done for a reason, and whether we'll see Mat with Fain etc in the next two episodes (maybe), but it may well be that we won't get a Mat now until season 2 and the new guy takes over. Since it's such an odd decision, I'm leaning towards it being the best of a bad salvage.

I've only watched the episode once but it looked odd to me, like Mat was transposed from earlier footage when they were all yelling. That's possibly because it was a retcon. They may have decided it was easier to cut/reshoot any more scenes he was in (or supposed to be in) rather than replace him on short notice. Especially if he left very late in the process, and it was easy to write him out.

I don't think Moiraine is reopening the gate. If Mat's story does continue this season I don't think he's going to Fal Dara or the Eye at all.

It might equally mean the tension is ramped up, because if the dragon is Mat, well then they're fucked.

Rafe has mentioned before that logistics was one of the biggest challenges. Ingtar was supposed to be in this season but actor availability meant that they've had to rename the character, and Ingtar will be season 2 instead now.

Valda was terrified of Perrin. I think he is mixed with Byar and 100% will be hunting down the yellow eyed darkfriend next season. He may not have personally killed any Whitecloaks but I think Valda is enough fanatic that it doesn't matter. Hell think Perrin instructed the wolves to do it or something.

For the eye being described as the DO's prison I think that's handholding for the viewer, who is expecting this to be Ishy. I think it will end up being a lure in order to either get them to break the first seal (and let the forsaken out in the show) or manipulating the dragon into setting the prophecy in motion. Sooner he does that the sooner the DO is free after all. Suian's dream was that the DO is weak and they might be able to strengthen the prison, or seal him permanently. It wasn't to kill him I don't think.

I think what her dream actually means is that the seal there is about to break. It's one of the locks on the DO's prison after all so it makes sense when you're talking about the difficult interpretation of dreams, and she has just misunderstood (or been deceived if Ishy is sending the dream)

Also, just saw your edit, but I wrote the post now lol.

[Mikhail]

Yeah, Barney leaving before everything was done- and he deleted any trace of social media, etc- it left them a quagmire and so I will give them a lot of leeway in how they deal with Mat. Playing up the what if he was it, we're fucked angle works. They had to make do with what they had. Clearly that was stock retcon footage they reused for Mat not going.

Valda was terrified of Perrin. I think he is mixed with Byar and 100% will be hunting down the yellow eyed darkfriend next season. He may not have personally killed any Whitecloaks but I think Valda is enough fanatic that it doesn't matter. Hell think Perrin instructed the wolves to do it or something.

Not sure if this works. But that all depends on how it is played out. Yes, Valda won't see it the same. Like Byar (and Dain) and their unreasonable blaming of Geofram's death at the hand of the Seanchan, Valda will blame Perrin ad it will drive the animosity.
But at the core of it- and why Perrin let them have a mental hold on him- was that he really did kill 2 WCs. He agreed to let them take him in book 4 if they aided at the battle of the 2R. And then in book 13 or whatever, he stood trial with Morgase and Galad over those deaths. Granted, we are talking things far into the future and they may not be plot elements we see (though seeing the WC rehabilitated by Galad should happen. Currently they are stock bad guys- I love 'em with their obvious "police style" haircuts and mustaches- but they do play a role and should be more nuanced. Hell, if the DF's can be sympathetic....). So those specifics will be moot.
But Perrin really did carry some guilt or fear over his killing of the WC. Maybe theyve transferred that fully over to his issues over killing his wife. In which case, I suppose it doesn't matter. Same point is made, different specifics.

For the eye being described as the DO's prison I think that's handholding for the viewer, who is expecting this to be Ishy. I think it will end up being a lure in order to either get them to break the first seal (and let the forsaken out in the show) or manipulating the dragon into setting the prophecy in motion. Sooner he does that the sooner the DO is free after all. Suian's dream was that the DO is weak and they might be able to strengthen the prison, or seal him permanently. It wasn't to kill him I don't think.

Siuan specifically said killing him. though it's interesting that the DO hasn't, in the story, been presented as a being equal with the creator. That's curious. He's being treated almost like a Voldomort character. A powerful mortal, but mortal all the same. Very likely, they are going for a confusion with Baalzamon/Ishy. But it is odd that we haven't seen the proper world view even from the AS. There's no catechism about the DO being sealed at the moment of creation. In the books, Rand is considered insane for thinking he can kill the DO. In the bonus videos, we've not seen any details regarding the sealing of he DO either.

It makes me wonder if they are really keeping it a mystery or if they've conflated Ishy with the DO. Or maybe, the DO isn't actually the threat and more a force of nature. Which, truthfully, I never bought even from Sanderson. The DO spoke to Demandred. Made promises. Exercised agency and planning. It was he that resurrected Aginor, Balthamel and Lanfear. IT was he that manifested as Shaidar Haran. It is not a simple transcendent being. The DO, as played in the books- both by his words and actions- is not a simple force. When Rand sealed him away and treated him as if he was just a preexisting force that merely allowed for evil or let people manifest what they most desired- amplified it- it seemed odd given what we actually SAW and HEARD him do.

So it will be interesting to see how they play this. But at least so far and S and M (there's my new abbreviation for them) the DO can possibly be killed.

I think what her dream actually means is that the seal there is about to break. It's one of the locks on the DO's prison after all so it makes sense when you're talking about the difficult interpretation of dreams, and she has just misunderstood (or been deceived if Ishy is sending the dream)

This works for me too. The dragon being at the Eye was important and gotten from the pattern, though M had no idea what he was supposed to do there. No one did. Just that he needed to be there.

Someone suggested the ways are being activated by Dreadlords or Forsaken. (And that Liandrin is actually meeting a forsaken. I have a feeling Liandrin has been merged with Alviarin. So it works. She was sleeping with Belal.) All of which explains how the Trollocs arrived. But the other side is that it still makes Loial superfluous. Meeting an an ogier in Caemlyn with knowledge of the ways when they needed to get to Fal Dara and the Eye quickly was the pattern.

Now, what do they need Loial for? If the ogier have no connection to the ways (which, if it's power activated, that kind of what it means) then it is odd.

Maybe they'll explain it.

Half the trouble is that these changes have ramifications and repercussions and so you go crazy trying to figure out what it all will mean for the future. I am not sure I can turn that off- and maybe I need to....

[Ascendancy]

Reading ya'll's back and forth is a hoot, btw!

[Thalia]

I think Loial is their navigator. He does read the direction stone things in the books. Didn't the trollocs suffer massive losses when they went through on their own? The poor Ogier sounded very grumpy to be there.

Yes, you're right about it being killing the DO not sealing him. My husband just watched so I saw the scene again. Siuan says the DO will be there at the Eye and is weak, and that it might be their best chance to destroy him. The latter part could easily be her interpretation I guess. If you are repeatedly seeing the DO in a weak position, prophecy or no prophecy you would be tempted to take that chance. Honestly, that's why I think the dream is a trap. It's only Moiraine who specifically mentions the DO's prison. 

You're right, we don't really know what they think the DO is. But I think the viewer is encouraged to think of flame guy so the omission might be purposeful. We already know Ishy was the last one to bring the dragon to the DO from what Dana said, so they are not merging them. I think they've just gotten rid of the Ba'alzamon title, are letting us think the flame guy is the DO without naming him, and will then disabuse us of the notion before the end. I think that's when we'll find out the Forsaken are released (or have been out for some time, potentially, especially if they find the seal broken already as in the books).

There have been a couple of things that might be Forsaken related imo (when Valda described a "witch" telling him that Aes Sedai hand movements are a crutch it sounded FAR more like something a Forsaken would say, to me. Aes Sedai don't admit deficiencies, and to them it was lost knowledge at this point. A Forsaken from the AoL though would certainly find it dumb) but I'm really not certain the Forsaken are out physically yet. I guess we'll find out.

I thought the same about Liandrin/Alviarin but their temperaments are quite different. Galina? Or potentially both. Valda definitely seems a three-way lol. It's a good point about her meeting a man in north harbour if the Forsaken are at large already though.

I agree, I think they have replaced the WC deaths with Laila's; I assumed as recognition that it's (more than) enough trauma for him to be dealing with. If they keep the trial, he may allow it because of his guilt for her anyway, they've already broached him feeling like he deserves the punishment (and I think they will blame him for the wolves, who did kill WCs). His previous dream suggests he will blame his being a wolfbrother for Laila's death, and since the WCs were also killed by his being a wolfbrother, that might be enough of a connection in his mind. The WC will be integral to Perrin's story when he goes home so maybe they will work something else in if they need to. The WCs aren't total cardboard villains, we saw Bornhold was far more measured. It's just Valda who is the psychopath, and he's the one they've focused on. They have lots of time to explore that more fully later on.

I find it interesting that Valda isn't more nuanced, and why that might be, but i may be overthinking it. He could just be a run of the mill psychopath.

I loved Egwene in the Amyrlin's study. Her expression when Nynaeve doesn't bother bowing, and how she puffs up when she thinks Suian is describing her as the greatest channeler they'd ever seen, only to look at Nynaeve in surprise.

Also, ships going missing in the West sounds like it's a lead-in to the Seanchan to me.