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WoT on Prime episode 6 SPOILERS
#11
(12-10-2021, 08:01 PM)Thalia Wrote: I think Loial is their navigator. He does read the direction stone things in the books. Didn't the trollocs suffer massive losses when they went through on their own? The poor Ogier sounded very grumpy to be there.

But this doesn't work. Why would they need an ogier to read the stone guidings? One would think, if AS made them and they need the power to use, then it would be the old tongue, not ogier script,as it was in the books. Male AS made them FOR ogier, so it makes sense, when they were clean, that ogier had set up all the guidings.

But making them power activated makes it primarily for channelers. Presumably, M can read the old tongue, as Lan is able to translate expressions of it as well. She (or he) could read the OT enough to at least cipher out old place names as such.

Again, removing the ogier connection to the ways screws all this up.

Someone pointed out that Moiraine channels what looks like a trefoil leaf (saw the screenshot and it is a three fold shape.) So that may be the nod to the leaf....but still that misses the point.

WHo knows. At this point, we don't know and I am making assumptions. But at least as it stands, Loial seems completely unnecessary.


Pretty much agree with everything else. You're right about PErrin and the WC. So it works.

(12-10-2021, 08:01 PM)Thalia Wrote: Also, ships going missing in the West sounds like it's a lead-in to the Seanchan to me.

I loved this. Definitely screamed seanchan
"Good and ill. 
We're like the wind, 
we blows both ways."
- Mad Sweeney, American Gods
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#12
Yep. Wasn't arguing on the logic, just that I think that's why he's there in the show and what he will be doing. Whether it makes sense or not lol. Could be that in the show they were made for both ogier and aes sedai to use? Maybe this one is channeling activated because it's near Tar Valon and therefore intended to be opened by channelers? I'm reaching I know. I was disappointed Moiraine opened it and not Loial.
"A river is water in its loveliest form; rivers have life and sound and movement and infinity of variation, rivers are veins of the earth through which the lifeblood returns to the heart."
Roderick Haig-Brown
[Image: nimedathalialethebanner.jpg]
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#13
Having Moiraine open the gate by channeling doesn't mean that all way gates operate that way. We've never actually seen this gate in the books. As Thalia pointed out, this gate may be different or have been modified by the Aes Sedai due to its proximity to Tar Valon. For all we know, the other gates open the traditional way. Seeing one doesn't mean they all are like that. She clearly channeled the shape of the trefoil leaf, meaning the leaf is the key. 

Similarly, I assume that Loial is needed to be their guide. Moiraine says they need him, which is why he is recruited. I assume its to read the Ogier script on the guideposts along the way. As to how it was opened, maybe this gate was damaged previously. Moiraine uses the one power in the books to open a gate from the inside. So it can be done. They also talk about locking, changing and damaging gates in the books meaning that modifications can happen. I'd just hesitate to make too many guesses since there is a precedent. 

My guess is the show changed how some (or all) gates are opened through the use of the one power. This gate features heavily in the show marketing, so I'm sure they gave it a lot of thought. Rafe talks about it in the behind the scenes for ep 6. I just trust that they thought through some of these questions and either decided the details were not that important or came up with a workaround. 

The eye of the world as an entire entity is odd and weird and doesn't fit with the book mythos. So by referencing the prison, or even a place of thinness, as a reason to think it's important is good enough for me. We never found out why Moiraine said they had to go there, just that they did and it was important. The fact that inwardly she thought it was a place of the dark one's prison could be the reason. At least the show has a reason to go there. haha.

100% they had to reshoot the scene at the gate with the E5 and gang freaking out about Mat not coming along. The "Mat" on the other side of the gate seemed CGI or spliced-in footage. 100% it's because this is when he dropped out. Whatever happened to that guy, hope we find out someday. Maybe we'll get as best an explanation they could come up with for not taking Mat, maybe not. 

Okay back to episode fun stuff:

The picture on Moiraine's wall finally made sense. I assume that was some kind of Mask of Mirrors covering something magicky. lol. Moiriane looked so beautiful in that white light in her dressing gown. She looked like an angel. Rosamund is so amazing. I loved that Lan mentioned that she masked his bond. Great book-reference there! But sweet Lan finally has a night off and is instead going to stand guard outside her bedroom. How so sweet is he? At first I thought the fishing-hut space Siuan was in was the Amyrlin's private space at the top of the Tower. It's said that the Amyrlin decorates her quarters however she wants. And I thought maybe kinda there were glimpses of horizon outside that indicated they were up high. When it all happened, I kind of thought that the Illusion was covering a secret passage to the Amyrlin's quarters that Moiraine used to access her directly. 

Breaking news: her picture is a ter'angreal! The x-ray notes on this scene says as much. So it is a ter'angreal to "another place, space or experience". When Moiraine leaves her room, there is a shape of a stone archway/door that sort of appears. When she appears in Siuan's room, she's standing in front of a thatched hut-door. So the doorway picture is a ter'angreal door! SOOOO COOL! There is that same white light glow surrounding the 'hut' walls and it presumably is some sort of pocket (HOLY CRAP Thalia It's a Pocket! I'm freaking out!) in space. In order for Moiraine to return to her rooms, she just needs to open Siuan's door and goes back. In the scene with Egwene and Nyn meeting the Amyrlin, you see a very similar looking hanging in her office that I presume is the matching ter'angreal. Although the painting within Siuan's frame is of the river in Tear where she grew up (from opening scene) while Moiraine's frame has a painting of presumably a blue sister standing in front of many doors. I'm betting the frame itself is the ter'angreal and the painting can be changed. I also am thinking that Siuan has decorated the "pocket" to her tastes.

I find it so sweet how Moiraine looks at Siuan with so much love. Rosamund killed it! And the fact that only after they are done reuniting does she tell Siuan she's found the dragon. Like seriously, I'd be a little pissed you didn't lead with that. But then again, I am a cold-hearted Ascendancy. 

So who do we think the man that Liandrin meets in North-harbour? Moiraine has been in the tower for like a day, so surely it's not Padan Fain? Is it the Forsaken? Is it a looooover? 

Egwene being presented to the Amyrlin Seat (the actual throne seat).. gosh I can just imagine her sitting there and Rand walking in later on in the height of his power.. 

Overall, extremely moving and I've enjoyed it so far. I look forward to some kick-assery from the E5, Shienar, and the show-down to come.
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#14
This interview with Lan's actor talking about Lan is really informative. Plus the last question he answers is a tear-jerker. Superb.

https://nerdist.com/article/the-wheel-of...interview/
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#15
"Animashaun: As I mentioned before, Moiraine comes to Loial and asks if he could guide them through the Ways. There's a very trepidatious nature to that because of what's happened to the Ways and his feelings towards that. So, of course, he's very, at first, very anxious about it, but he wants to help. And at the beginning, when they go into the Ways, things happen that I can't really talk about. But I can tell you that it's very high octane, very dramatic, great, amazing, incredible performances from every single person. I cannot tell you how much in awe I am in every single person that I continuously work with on a daily basis. But yeah, the Ways, it's a very special moment in the series. I think you're going to enjoy it a lot"
-- from a lovely little interview with Loial's actor. From what he also says about his interactions with the rest of the cast I'm really looking forward to his scenes with them. The rest of the interview is here https://comicbook.com/tv-shows/news/whee...-spoilers/

I agree about the waygates. We need to wafo. It's probably my least favourite change so far though, at least with the information we have right now.

I thought Moiraine was clear in the show about why they were going to the Eye, and it's to destroy the DO. Suian says he was weak and will be "at" the Eye, it's only Moiraine who mentions the DO's prison (which I thought was more metaphysical anyway). It could be simplification for the sake of the E5 and viewers, or it could be a change and the Eye is where he was sealed away in the show. I don't really mind either way. Like you said the Eye was odd in the books. I think Suian's dream will end up being about the seals weakening.

Rosamund is just beautiful full stop, and especially in that scene. I also thought it was incredibly sweet that Lan offered to stand in the hall with her for her exile. They have absolutely nailed the perfection of the warder/Aes Sedai bond.

I had seen the x-ray about it being ter'angreal, it still seemed weird, but I think that's because it didn't scream TAR to me. I thought it was Tear by the night noises and a ter'angreal that aided Travelling seemed odd. Connected ter'angreal that provide access to a dreamshard makes sense though (and the scene begins and ends with bright light). I wonder if they will follow up on the (presumably unknowing) risk of them going into TAR in the flesh when we get to the Aiel wise women dreamers.

I should have twigged it was TAR because Moiraine wears red though lol.

I totally thought Suian was going to berate her for not leading with the info too! Though she did hold back her own as well. I adored the pufferfish comment.

Egwene being shown the seat was excellent foreshadowing. I liked that Moiraine sold the Tower to Egwene, reunited the girls, and then presented both the girls to Suian. They clearly realised these two were going to be the voice of reason in convincing the boys to follow Moiraine.

I think Liandrin has been getting info from Fain (the boys names). I don't think she named Perrin and Egwene (I could be wrong) and I think that info came from the Yellow who turns to watch Moiraine and the Yellow AS leading her to E and P. The man she is meeting is someone else though and probably (unknowing to Moiraine) a DF connection, possibly even Forsaken as CK suggests. I think Moiraine thinks it's a lover. The only way it could be Fain is if he lives in Tar Valon. Those are my guesses anyway lol.

We still haven't seen Egwene's pool scene, and we know they shot footage of Rand and Tam's journey from the farm/fever dream. Moiraine said there would be time for everyone's stories but does a campfire flashback type thing seem a bit clunky to anyone else? What other ways do we think they could do it?

Edit: what a wonderful interview with Henney. That last bit Sad

He mentions a bit about ep7 and it seems we'll be finding out more about Lan's background too. And I'm sure I've seen a clip that I thought was him and Nynaeve exchanging something (hands closeup so it could have been something else). REALLY curious as to how they are doing to be doing the flashbacks now.

Do you think machin shin might be some sort of horror entity that splits then up and makes them confront things from their past??

Hmm, or maybe Lan's past stuff is just revealed in Fal Dara. That would probably make more sense...
"A river is water in its loveliest form; rivers have life and sound and movement and infinity of variation, rivers are veins of the earth through which the lifeblood returns to the heart."
Roderick Haig-Brown
[Image: nimedathalialethebanner.jpg]
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#16
Oooh, another thing to add to the above, about wondering how they may be delivering the flashbacks: this interview with Rosamund Pike: https://tvline.com/2021/12/10/the-wheel-...nter-ways/

But specifically this bit:

TVLINE | Can you tease anything about the final two episodes? It looks like we’re headed for the Eye of the World, whatever that’s going to look like…
Episode 7 (streaming Dec. 17) is maybe my favorite. We’re going to enter at least four worlds you’ve never seen yet in the show. You can guess what one is by the end of Episode 6. But then major parts of Robert Jordan’s imagination — whole other climates and worlds we’ve never seen — they advance the story, they advance the threat, they advance the tension. And also there are other concepts that open up. We suddenly realize “new concepts of time,” I would say. Playing on the idea of “The Wheel of Time.”

I AM SO INTRIGUED!

Both Rosamund and Daniel have now said episode 7 is their favourite.

Ck, it sounds like you're right and they may be merging the idea of portal stones in with the ways.
"A river is water in its loveliest form; rivers have life and sound and movement and infinity of variation, rivers are veins of the earth through which the lifeblood returns to the heart."
Roderick Haig-Brown
[Image: nimedathalialethebanner.jpg]
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#17
I am also highly suspicious that Siuan's dreams (she's not a Dreamer in the books, right???) are being planted by either a) the Dark One or b) Ishy/Baally. Either way, I'm suspicious that it's a lure to get the Dragon candidates to the Eye so that the Forsaken can ambush them. At this point, the Dark One/Ishy/Ba'al doesn't know which of them is the Dragon but does know it's one of the E5. The Dark One/Ishy/Ba'al is tracking them so definitely knows they would be in Tar Valon. We also are aware that the DO/Ishy/Ba'al targets the Amyrlin as his enemy. Altogether, I'm thinking it's a big trap. 

Side note, Ba'alzamon as an entire entity never made sense to me. I get what he was, but I lump Ba'alzy in with the whole Green Man, Eye, wonky mythos that was started in book 1 that never really persisted. In fact, the more I think about it, and I know you all have discussed it already in past posts, but the whole lead up to the Horn of Valere, which seemed super important early on but ended up being next to nothing importance, battle in the sky above Falme, even Portal Stones were never really used or referenced later on, were all super odd. If I was adapting the first 3 books for a series, I'd have a really hard time figuring out how to get through these elements without actually using them. 

I didn't really think that the place Siuan and Moiraine went to using the ter'angreal was TAR. I interpreted it as just a meeting place, whether it's in the real world or TAR or something in between (like a folded place in the Pattern), I don't know why, I just didn't think it was TAR. It felt real, not dreamy, especially with nothing flowing or moving or shifting. Or it may be a RAFO and we'll never find out what it was, but just leaves it undefined. Which is fine I guess. In my head, it's not TAR, but I'm just telling myself that. (I love WAFO btw!) 

In the books, Lord Agelmar tells the story of Lan as the last king of Malkier. So I am assuming that will happen again, hence explaining Lan's backstory. 

I really hope Machin Shin has horrific elements rather than just a repeat of Shadar Logoth. If the wind takes them over and does show them something, I hope that's where we get the colors flowing over Egwene from the pool scene. In that scene, Egwene's hair is down and flowing, indicating that its Egwene of Episode 6 or later rather than a flashback, where presumably would have her hair braided. Unless its a flashback to the time before she joined the Women's Circle, but I doubt that. So I'm guessing it's showing Egwene something. We know there is a Bloodsnow scene. eventually, which is connected to Rand. But what may be shown to the others? Maybe Perrin is shown something about the wolves? Nyn shown .... ?? Maybe we don't see equivalent flashes/scenes for the others, just bloodsnow and the paint thing. Maybe the pool scene with the paint ended up on the cutting room floor. That happens quite a bit.
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#18
(12-11-2021, 01:53 PM)Thalia Wrote: Oooh, another thing to add to the above, about wondering how they may be delivering the flashbacks: this interview with Rosamund Pike: https://tvline.com/2021/12/10/the-wheel-...nter-ways/

But specifically this bit:

TVLINE | Can you tease anything about the final two episodes? It looks like we’re headed for the Eye of the World, whatever that’s going to look like…
Episode 7 (streaming Dec. 17) is maybe my favorite. We’re going to enter at least four worlds you’ve never seen yet in the show. You can guess what one is by the end of Episode 6. But then major parts of Robert Jordan’s imagination — whole other climates and worlds we’ve never seen — they advance the story, they advance the threat, they advance the tension. And also there are other concepts that open up. We suddenly realize “new concepts of time,” I would say. Playing on the idea of “The Wheel of Time.”

I AM SO INTRIGUED!

Both Rosamund and Daniel have now said episode 7 is their favourite.

Ck, it sounds like you're right and they may be merging the idea of portal stones in with the ways.



A ha!! I kind of wondered if they were being inspired by the concept of the Arches, Rhuidean's columns, TAR, and the portal stones and merging these "flashes" of what-if lives with Machin Shin. How intriguing!! I can't wait!
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#19
I thought pockets and dreamshards were the same things, and were located in TAR (controlled by whoever makes them), but that might be misremembering things or mixing/remembering things wrong. It didn't have a quality to it that I'd expect for the dreamworld, beyond the bright white light of when Moiraine goes in and the bright white light that flashes up at the end that I thought might just signify an "other" place. When Rand enters in the flesh does he see TAR differently? I wonder if we won't get things moving and shifting because of budget. But apparently there is info on the prime page which suggests it was a ter'angreal that took them to a hut in Tear. I am just going to choose that it was a folded place in time like you said because I prefer that explanation. And that whoever goes in first decides the location (Suian's painting being surroundings in Tear, and Moiraine's one being ... well, I presumed Cairhien but it does just look like the Tower so maybe that doesn't work).

Actually, I've just googled dreamshard and you're absolutely right about it being a pocket dimension, between the real world and TAR. So, whatever the official prime page says, that makes FAR more sense than them actually being in Tear. Where, you know, channeling is illegal and they are completely unprotected. So I pick your explanation too.

Suian's not a dreamer in the books. I wonder if they've replaced her seeing ta'veren talent? It's possible this is why Moiraine thought there were 4 ta'veren in the Two Rivers? Perhaps she was acting on dream info. I think it's also possible she's not a dreamer though. She does mention that the DO dream started a month back, but then why wouldn't Moiraine question its validity if it was something new? It also tracks with why Moiraine is certain that dreams are important with the E5. The only thing I wonder is, if Suian IS a dreamer, why isn't she shielding her dreams? Because I think the Eye dream is a trap too. Maybe they don't know how yet. In the books Egwene was the first dreamer in a long time so perhaps it's still not well understood. I can't remember at which point Rand is told about shielding his dreams. Maybe they will use this being a trap to introduce the concept.

I'd love to see the greenman but realistically I am happy if they smooth out the early plot anomalies to fit with the rest of the series. It also makes it interesting that we don't know exactly what's going to happen in the next two episodes.

I thought Egwene's hair being loose was because it's part of the ceremony, and we only saw the conclusion, when she gets the braid. After she's out of the river, her dress looks like it has the swirly remains of the paint, as if it had happened before they did the hair braid bit we saw. Equally, you're right, it could be a flashforward as we know in the books she decides not to wear the braid eventually, and the colours feel prescient. Rafe has definitely mentioned the word flashforward in interviews, and we haven't seen anything like that yet. I'd be surprised if they cut it, just because it formed a large part of their original marketing. I also think we are going to see the actual fever dream ramblings scene with Tam and Rand as well seeing the Blood Snow. That's part of what makes me think it might be a more horror-inspired sequence. I can't see how else they would show both those things and make sure the viewer connected them. I'm basing us seeing the actual fever ramblings on the still in the bts of episode 1 (think that was a mistake on their part to include it; presumably it was filmed at the same time as ep1) and Rafe's response to why the scene was skipped being: "did we?" So I might be completely wrong.

The others though... I got no idea. My money is on Perrin's wolf connection being revealed by Elyas still, only in season 2 instead. If they do all the E5 I'm sad about Mat. Maybe if it's part of the wind, only some of them get touched by it? Ooooh, what if they tie it to the DR reveal? If they do just do something with Egwene and Rand, isn't there a theory that Egwene might be Latra reborn? We know LTT and Latra have been cast. Maybe they will lean into that somehow, or focus on those two now to draw parallels later? That's some super long-term foreshadowing if so. So intriguing!

By the way, have you seen Daniel Henney's parents' tweets? They are so super proud, its adorable. Apparently episode 7 is a good one for Lan lol

EDITED TO ADD: I've just watched the behind the scenes (gosh the sets look gorgeous in real life!) and at the end Rosamund talks about how 4 of them are heading to the Eye and will potentially not come back. That seems to confirm Mat was originally supposed to go (5 kids go, 1 is the dragon and the other 4 might die).
"A river is water in its loveliest form; rivers have life and sound and movement and infinity of variation, rivers are veins of the earth through which the lifeblood returns to the heart."
Roderick Haig-Brown
[Image: nimedathalialethebanner.jpg]
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#20
Jeez! A guy goes to sleep and 40 Brazilian posts get put up. I guess the saying is true....you snooze you don't get the worms.

Gonna have fun parsing all this.

I LOVED the Ogier episode 6 Xtra. Was beautifully animated. I didn't see any 6 BTS but maybe it wasn't up when I looked.

And now I have to go earn that final damn beanie for the 12 days of Christmas at the gym so likely y'alls will be on page 8 by then ;-)

(Btw, Asc, I always saw Baalzamon abbreviated as Balzy. :-p)
"Good and ill. 
We're like the wind, 
we blows both ways."
- Mad Sweeney, American Gods
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