Reincarnations

[Jay Carpenter]

Let's talk reincarnations for a bit.

So I think everyone knows that Jay is a reborn version of my character Jai from an old forums RP board set in the 3rd Age before the last battle. For one thing, Jai was hell of fun to write, and while Arikan was interesting, he was pretty dark while Jai was just plain old fun. I didn't want to lose that character so decided to rebirth him here as Jay.

With all this posting of Jay's past life as Jai (3rd Age Asha'man) i've been doing lately, it's made me re-read all that he was in his past life. While I have worked hard (about as hard as I work anyway) to make Jay fit as a reincarnated Jai, there is a lot I am struggling to figure out.

For one thing I don't want to repeat the same story that took Jai to where he ended up and force that upon Jay, because while they're the same soul, they're two different people.

That led me to ask what factors go into making a character. To me I figured 3 things: genetics, childhood, and the soul. The soul remains the same between reincarnations while the other two vary drastically.

Jai had OCD and was a math genius (genetics). He had a good family that came from wealth and prestige, but not exactly affectionate. He loved his family, but their relationships were twisted and bizarre. But those were the factors that went into who Jai was in that life specifically.

Soulfully, he is loyal, tunnel-visioned, able to sacrifice one thing to gain an ends he truly felt were justified, is a good soldier in battle, and loves the thrill and power of saidin perhaps too much, enough that he'll kill with it and feel little remorse, especially if he deemed it "necessary" or "for the cause." He's self-sacrificing for those to whom he is loyal. He enjoys flirting with women and gets a thrill out of charming them and making them smile. He's also bisexual, but is only particularly romantic with women. Specifically, his soul is also tethered to Natalie (Past life: Nythadri) and he loves her fiercely, passionately, and probably dangerously.

So that's my analysis of Jai.

My struggle is to take all the attributes of Jai's soul and strip them away from his past life, and implant them into the current life. In the current life he was raised by good old fashioned close family in rural Iowa. He was a sports star and not particularly intellectual. He joined the marines and eventually the Legion. So there's not much genetically or from childhood that has some huge impact on his current life. In fact, the current Jay is probably what past Jai should have been if 1) his family weren't crazy, 2) he didn't have to murder damane for a job, and 3) there was no such thing as the taint screwing with his sanity.

To all of who that have characters who were reborn versions of someone else (either a mythological figure or an old RP char or whatever), how do you meld those two people? What in their souls do you connect life to life and how do you strip away the genetics and childhood impacts?

I'm thinking reading all of your thoughts could help me organize my own.

[Ivan Sarkozy]

I think this is a great topic and one that I struggle with too. Ive had one formal (and one informal) reincarnated character. Id written the history of Viracocha and both the things he and Amana came up with as well as the person he was.

Ivan has some of that and yet i've (perhaps inadvertantly) written him with a bit of a dumb jock mentality. Straightforward and not seemingly subtle. And definitely not intellectual. Yet Viracocha came up with many advancements, like using Quipu to encode information, including power weaves, and other stuff.

Ive read Jai and his math ability is just as impressive...something that we dont see in Jay.

Lately, its occurred to me that while Ivan isnt scientific, he is mechanical. He likes machines and the beauty of the interplay of intricate parts...which is really another side of the coin. So that has been my vehicle for him to show theres a bit more behind the dumb jock persona. It hints at the reason behind the interest.

So...in story.. what does that mean? In this life, thats how his soul ability manifests itself. In his other lives, its other ways. Same motivations or desires, different outlets or manifestations. Suddenly Im reminded of Anders in Battlestar Galactica who was a cylon and had no memory of it. And yet, the
Cylon whod been a scientist had now been just a football player meathead jock....until you saw that his core interests were there. He loved the phsyics of the game. I think of Rand as Ltt and himself. The same soul, but Rand is the better man. "I was raised better" was his explanation.

I think we have to pick and choose how their core qualities would manifest in this life under these circumstances.

My informal reincarnation (Connor as Tam) used similar traits but things in his life had broken him and he needed to be healed before he could be reborn to do the job he would need to do. This life was to get him to a place where he could be ready to be the father Rand needed. Connor is nowhere near as together (or cool) as Tam was, but hopefully experiences helped heal him to be what he needed to be.

Anyway, thats how Ive been approaching things. My ramblings anyway.

[Thalia]

Oooh, I love discussing character mechanics!

I think making a reborn god is a different process (it was for me, anyway) because there isn't the same expectation. Gods are open to wide interpretation, particularly the ones with scarce detail (Lethe is a river for instance). If someone else were to write Odin, they would probably end up with a totally different character - for me I focused on Odin the wanderer/manipulator. The key influence for Soren's character was the question of how it would affect someone's attitude if they knew how they were going to die. Someone else might have a completely different angle or spin they wanted to put on things. It would be a different kind of Odin, but it'd still be Odin.

Recreating old characters, on the other hand, comes with baggage and expectations and is harder to navigate because not everything translates or works in the new setting. At least if you want to write the same character rather than take the bare bones and run with it to make something new.

For Natalie I DID want to write the same character, so I did try to recreate things that would have the same or similar shaping impact on who she is. For things that didn't translate, like the institution of the White Tower, which is an enormous factor, I looked at its impact and how other events and influences might achieve the same or similar result -- or how future events might provide the catalyst. So for example Natalie doesn't have a dead brother, but Azu's death was intended to have a similar impact on her. The reason she belongs to a wealthy family this time rather than a destitute one is because of the constrictions and responsibilities it puts on her life - she needs something to rebel against, but also something to feel dutifully loyal to. In the absence of the WT her family are going to have to provide some of the same pressures. That's also why I've forced her to register; to reduce the choices she feels she is able to make about her own life.

It isn't the same story, but it has the same sorts of influences. They are both restless characters in seeming positions of privilege. They both have self-destructive tendencies in a quest to find meaning. They both have reasons to feel acutely trapped. The details don't matter, but the core conflict is the same. For me that's the point of reincarnating the character as opposed to creating someone new who has the same personality.

So I'd say a lot of the things I've used to shape Natalie beyond the core of who she is aren't genetics, childhood or soul - they are echoes of Nythadri's character arc. Without the things that shape us we're vastly different people. Nature v nurture and all that. Without those things she'd still be the same "soul" but she'd be a vastly different person, and that's not personally what I want to write for her.

I know you don't want to write the same story. But. Have you considered that Jai and Jay are simply at different points of their character arcs? Nothing changed for Jai until he was discovered as a channeler - and Jay is only just at that point.

I wonder if the "issue" is that Jai had a core conflict that Jay hasn't. Growing up Jai wanted to the join the Tower Guard, marry Jaslene and live a "normal" life - but being an Asha'man, seeing what he saw and doing what he did, made that completely incongruous with who he was forced to be. Worse, he knew he liked the killing -- or at least wielding saidin -- and that messed with his idea of being a good person (which he didn't believe he was). WORSE, generations of his family forsook duty for love, and Jai was predisposed to the same attitude - but the consequences for him if he did were so much worse, and the consequences if he didn't weren't pleasant either. He was constantly pulled in two directions. Conflict. Inescapable conflict.

Seriously, you excel at making your characters' lives sucky, and doing it in an intricate and downright heartbreaking way. So far Jay has had an easy ride, and maybe that's the problem?

So my advice would be to inject some internal conflict. Take away one of Jay's dreams. Make whatever future life he sees for himself impossible without sacrifice, and let him angst over it. Or whatever else you can think of.

This may or may not be a helpful suggestion, but have you thought about giving him PTSD? He was discharged for saving a child - now he's witnessed (and was complicit in) the murder of a whole village of children. He couldn't stop it. That's gotta mess with the brain, and it's not going to be a great combination with a channeler. When Jai couldn't control himself he had Daryen to reign him in. Jay doesn't have that safety net. What will happen when he realises how terribly destructive saidin can be? The precarious balance between crazy and sane was also pretty intrinsic to the old Jai, which I know was the taint, but I'd argue that being susceptible to instability was also part of his "soul" rather than just a reaction to the taint, and that other pressures might cause the same reaction. Partly because there were other Asha'man at that time unaffected. Partly because it was an aspect of his character I enjoyed reading

I think really though it comes down to what sort of character you want Jay to be. What was it about Jai you enjoyed writing enough to bring him back specifically, rather than a character like him? What exactly makes you feel you're struggling with Jay? I'm guessing you feel something is either missing or off if you've posed this question, because you said it yourself: Jay is Jai, just without the same experiences that specifically shaped the previous version of him.

[Nox]

I can't really speak to the whole reincarnation thing, I've chosen gods that have very little info out there on them and I chose them for that reason specifically. While Aria is technically a 'reincarnation' of Matalina/Cari she's a big deviation, but then not.

And Nox while this is the original character he is by far my most reused character base. Which technically is the same as what you are doing with Jay and Jai.

For me taking the fundamental qualities of the character, you call it soul whatever you want, the basic essence and you give it a new background, a new situation and they aren't going to go the same direction. They might not even have the same problems.

Aria's took several fundamental qualities from Mat back in the day - she was lawful good to start. Followed the rules etc. But because of circumstances they both had a little bit of evil thrown in and they both went that direction. They are warriors and preferred the sword. Aria too a little bit fro my vampire version of Cari with the emapthy. It's the essence I use to create and the essence I stay true to, but they won't do the same thing, follow the same path, they aren't the same character in the same situation. I mean through people into the same situation again and are they going to act the same way?

Same thing with Nox. There are several things with Nox that remain the same, and some things I've had to change here because this character deviated from the rest of the essence and it was difficult to not follow that same path.

Just keep writing Jay, but I think Thal is right, Jay's kinda had it easy so far. Nothing truly horrible has happened to him yet. He needs that little push over the edge. I mean Dane's been caught by the cops with hair that wasn't his. Jaxen got hunted (twice) and kidnapped twice... Jay.... he's met his future girl - she did almost die and has now been kidnapped, but this isn't happening to him.

[Nox]

I'll quote you all this happened to Jaxen.... can Jay say the same thing?

<dl>
<dt>Quote:</dt>
<dd> </dd>
</dl>
"Yeah. In the last year I have been shot at by Atharim, kidnapped by cannibals, knifed at by Atharim, kidnapped by snakes, and learned I could do this...,

[Thalia]

<dl>
<dt>Nox</dt>
<dd>Nov 4 2017, 02:33 PM</dd>
</dl>
I mean through people into the same situation again and are they going to act the same way?

That's an interesting point. Put the same person in the same situations and presumably they'll learn. Put the same character base in the same situations and their reaction will differ depending on their individual experiences for sure. But I think a reincarnated soul (which I would argue is different from a reused character base) would still have predisposed strengths and weaknesses that might make them more likely to act the same or similar (depending on how experience varied). Particularly as we're talking about a world in which time is circular.

[Jay Carpenter]

<dl>
<dt>Quote:</dt>
<dd> </dd>
</dl>
My informal reincarnation (Connor as Tam) used similar traits but things in his life had broken him and he needed to be healed before he could be reborn to do the job he would need to do. This life was to get him to a place where he could be ready to be the father Rand needed. Connor is nowhere near as together (or cool) as Tam was, but hopefully experiences helped heal him to be what he needed to be.

This is kind of an interesting perspective. It's like your character has individual life-arcs but also an entire arc for every turning of the wheel. Its brilliant.

<dl>
<dt>Quote:</dt>
<dd> </dd>
</dl>


I know you don't want to write the same story. But. Have you considered that Jai and Jay are simply at different points of their character arcs?

You're spot on, as usual, thal. I purposefully made Jay younger than Jai was because Jai had 10 years of channeling behind him before his character was introduced. Jay is at the beginning of that same journey and after 10 years IC could be in a very similar place. I always thought of him at the 'beginning' of that arc and wanted to explore that potential char growth as a story with him.

I also agree that the big catalyst for change in Jai is saidin. Jay as well has already manifested some changes to his behavior simply after having been exposed to saidin a few times. It really is like a drug, something the books alluded to but never really showed anyone succumbing or even really struggling with the addictive properties.

The inherent conflict you described that I built into Jai is lacking in Jay. I wanted it to come from this place where he felt the sense that he wasn't doing something he was suppose to be doing with life. He was fine and dandy in Iowa, but the idea of the 'normal' life sickened him. Like it was just wrong. So he went out into the world seeking a place, but he didn't find it. He (and I did too) think he would find it with the Legion, but it's not fulfilling him either. and both of us are toying with the idea of abandoning the Legion completely.

Now I am rambling.

<dl>
<dt>Quote:</dt>
<dd> </dd>
</dl>
Seriously, you excel at making your characters' lives sucky, and doing it in an intricate and downright heartbreaking way. So far Jay has had an easy ride, and maybe that's the problem?

Best compliment of my life. *wink

but you're right, he's not had any sort of "inciting" event. Nothing realistically spurring him to action or change. He's stagnant. Jaxen has had a lot of activity. Even Dane and Declan have been exposed to things that altered them. Jay has been protected from these things so far, excluding the kids thing. I will think about how to incorporate that. If not PTSD, then something else. Maybe its a third child-related event that does it.

Aria has been one of the greatest character arcs ever. I can totally see her rise and fall, her walk in and out of darkness. I have a sense of her intrinsic motivation and how she is trapped by the life she was born into.

Seems that my answer in development lies in plain old action. He needs to do some threads, interact with other characters, and do more channeling.

I'm open to more suggestions. And maybe hear from Ly--
ahem,--Lawrence. *poke.

[Thalia]

Doesn't necessarily need to be action, so long as it provokes conflict. The stuff in Africa was action based, but it was also more plot-centric than character-centric.

If Jay is considering leaving the Legion, ramp up the tension around the decision? What pressures might make him feel like he couldn't/shouldn't leave, and what pressures might make staying feel completely untenable? There's been previous hints that he fears the failure (mall cop comment) and also suggestion that he's having trouble trusting Danjou's leadership. Might be a good idea to brainstorm a bit with Two on that?

He already views saidin as a weapon -- if he leaves the Legion, where is his outlet? (completely agree with the addiction by the way) Would killing nasties in the underground be enough to fill that void of purpose? Once he's left the Legion, where does future conflict come from? (At least in the sense that he then has no obligations to anyone).

What if he did something to be kicked out of the Legion instead? What would another failure do to him? Particularly if it was something, like before, where his well meaning intentions had disastrous consequences. How does he try to redeem himself?

Or what if the Legion wont let him go because they find out he's a channeler? That's one heck of a super soldier to just let quit, and a dangerous person to let loose on the streets.

Ascendancy has super soldiers from the Facility. That might be another avenue worth looking at for plot ideas, if Jay should come to the Custody's attention (or should he seek it for whatever reason).

I'll add that if/when Natalie's mother becomes aware of his interest in her daughter, she'll be looking for ways to discredit him.

/ramble. Sorry, love this stuff.

I'm interested in Lawrence's answer too *pokes*

[Jay Carpenter]

You're right. Doesn't have to be action per say. I guess I meant that he needs activity. He's been a passive character, reacting to things rather than forging his own story.

I want to use his commitment to the Legion as a source of conflict. He phases in and out of liking Danjou and wanting to follow him. The consequences of leaving the Legion would mean the lack of identity. Something he desperately craves. He pinned his whole identity to being an Asha'man and despite how much he wanted a different kind of life, he'd never not be an Asha'man to get it. Never mind that abandoning the BT meant death.

You'll notice that since he's been in Moscow he's done pretty much nothing for the Legion. Not checked in. Not shown up for post. In fact he's broken all kinds of rules simply by being out too long and public intoxication. Further, he dragged Jared, their most valuable weapon, away from duty. So I want him to get in trouble for that. It'll be up to Two as to how much. Anyone seen him around lately? Or is he off being super-soldier himself? I'm still convinced he's some kind of spy and the whole Canadian combat engineer thing is a cover.

Jared, meanwhile, is far more level-headed a person than Jay. I could see him at least leaving word with the Legion about what they're doing. Because honestly if we all died today, the Legion would have no idea what happened to us.

[Thalia]

*thumbs up*

Two is sort of about. Last word from the man himself:

<dl>
<dt>Hood</dt>
<dd> </dd>
</dl>
I am fairly certain of being of middling-confidence that I am probably back-ish and maybe not going anywhere any time soon, possibly

But that was a couple of weeks ago.