Of gods and men

[Jaxen Marveet]

Was chatting with Mickey V about this earlier, and came to conclude I'm going to take a shot at interpreting how the myths about Loki explain how he was as a channeler. And first and foremost, the guy was not a transvestite. Not that there's anything wrong with that. *Grin.

Any one else keen on tapping out the back-story explanation about their past lives? I'm kind of digging on the explanation of Claire/Atropos, Jon/Coyote, and all. *tips hat.

Short of coming across the Glass Columns somewhere, it's not as though any of us will be aware of what went down back in the day. But it'd be interesting to see how other people interpret the modern myths.

[Jon Little Bird]

I'm still thinking about past lives and ramifications of such, my thought of Coyote is that in the most recent 5th Age he probably aided the Remnant in getting the means to take the Gods down. Why, I haven't decided yet, but it sounds like something Coyote would do.

There are a lot of myths of Coyote, in some Native American cultures he's a bumbling fool character, and in other stories he helps the people obtain sacred items from the Gods like Fire, in still others he's involved with creation myths of the first people. In some tales he's a person called Coyote and in others he's the animal itself, but in pretty much all of him he possesses various forms of "medicine."

I'm thinking as Coyote grows in power and wisdom he transitions more from making mistakes into being a more cunning and directed individual who reflects more the "creator" or "protector" myths. He's actually a contemporary parallel of Loki as a trickster figure.


Edited by Jon Little Bird, Aug 28 2013, 03:04 PM.

[Thalia]

I’ve already done a bit for Thal, mostly in terms of her relationships with the other underworld/death associated gods in her pantheon, and in particular her existence in TAR. Her myth is very vague, so it gives me a ton of leeway. *grin*

[Jaxen Marveet]

It sounds like the trickster characters all kind of coincide with one another. But their stories definitely diverge.

If Coyote was a 'discoverer' of fire, that could definitely line up with him having helped discover a weapon, or at least take a known weapon and be one of the first to use it against an 'immortal.' The remnant might owe you a debt!

Growth over time is good. We're all infants still in the span of how long we could live.

I'm guessing for the majority of his life, Loki was a rather immature fellow. When it came to the gods of norse pantheon, the channelers that ruled their part of the world, though he was one of them, I tend to think Loki told them 'where they could put it pretty' often and pretty much did his own thing all the time anyway. This usually saw him in deep shit, or pissing off the more fearsome channelers, but he always found a way to scrape by and make amends.

The general discord between him and the rest of the pantheon was so strong that legend says he will lead the non-gods into battle against his own kind. That sounds like something Loki would do.

Over all, I think the guy is pretty much your standard evil bastard. He definitely doesn't have the traits of your classic hero. He's crafty, malicious, selfish, arrogant, and a sore loser. But he was talented. He was said to be able to take any form, and is most renowned among the gods for the use of "magic" in this sense. In particular, he was excellent at shapeshifting, and legend says he could change into any number of animals (including females), but I'm going to go with that general hype having been due to skill with Illusion.

One of his greatest moments of infamy was that he was responsible for the death of Balder, the son of Odin, the leader of their pantheon. It sounds like Balder dreamt of his own death and his parents extracted oaths from all living beings that none would harm their son, but Loki, in an attempt to prove a point about mortality, oh so kindly demonstrated that no man can escape death. I don't think he really thought a dart carved from a mistletoe could actually kill the famous god of light, but it did. Oh well. It happens. Then again, in revenge, they killed one of Loki's sons (Narvi). Sounds like one of his sons (Vali) was forced to do the deed. Ripping out your own brother's throat: not awesome.

Good thing he had a wife and a mistress to take his mind off the grief. *grin. But things weren't smooth sailing for long. Supposedly, Loki was tossed in some sort of channeler god prison, which they used his dead boy's guts (Narvi's) to tie him up. A bit harsh, wouldn't you say? Then they left him to rot, poisoning him just enough to make his world unbearable but not enough to actually kill him. I imagine he died of old-channeler age. But at least his wife, Sigyn, stayed by his side. Divorcee is such an ugly color for a goddess.

Luckily, his awesome legacy didn't end with the throatless Narvi and the idiotic Vali. He had two more sons which should have gone on to do awesome things: Fenrir and Jormungand.

Now Fenny is your standard father of werewolves figure. Probably some half-crazed wolfkin. Damn bad blood! Got it from his mother's side. *grin. Jor is pretty well accepted as an actual evil monster. Far surpassing his father's mildly heroic virtues and gone off the deep end of crazy. So monstrous and evil was this guy, he was eventually depicted as the great serpent coiling around the world. This guy was doom incarnate. So mixed up with the imagery of snakes, he may be the lucky bloke to be the one to get to poison ole helpless dad (who suffered the continual poisoning with snake venom while imprisoned). Jor. Thumbs up. Great kid. Also takes after his mother's side. *flat stare.




Edited by Jaxen Marveet, Aug 28 2013, 03:56 PM.

[Jaxen Marveet]

Pondering what the whole "getting his lips sewn shut" could mean. I doubt Hood was around back then. *grin.

Apparently, some people had the overly judgmental opinion that Loki talks too much. *shrug? One day he gets his lips sewn together. Everyone commences to laugh and jest. Oh! Look at the idiot with his lips sewn shut! Hah hah! *flat stare.

He retires quickly from sight and ripped the thread away. Of course, his grin took on a decidedly more sinister appearance after the scarring healed.

In the attempt to maintain symbolism. I'm guessing the massive shunning by his brethren finally cut too deep, and Loki, malicious beforehand, turned out right bitter.

[Ascendancy]

Yes! I love this topic!! Kudos to Jaxen for starting it. (Don't let it go to your head).

Hades.

*smile*

First things first. God of the Underworld. He probably isn't literally responsible for the souls of the dead. So, I interpreted this to mean he is a master at controlling things underground. Picture your basic earth delving Talent with an affinity for geoscience.

Combined with the legend that his brothers were gods of the air and sea, Hades is most comfortable, and most powerful, when dealing with things below the surface. It feels right to him.

As a child, we used to go caving. All the time. Sometimes they were toured caves open to the public, other times they were random crevices someone discovered in the area and we would all see how far we could make it before being forced to turn back. My home state is also affectionately known as "The Cave State," and there are at least 6,300 recorded caves in the state. Of the state, there are a couple of main areas where they are most concentrated. I was raised right in the middle of one such area.

Everybody had legends about local caves. Jesse James hid out in one only a few minutes from where I lived. They were used by the native americans and were adopted as hiding places for Civil War soldiers. I've many times been through the deepest cave in the state which burrows several miles underground. Suffice to say, I know the peaceful silence and awe that it is to be underground. Far underground. Feeling the weight of the world above you and knowing the ceiling of the small tunnel that forces you to crawl on your hands and knees is all that's keeping you from being crushed to death, or never being found again.

I identify with this version of Hades. He senses the power most profoundly in the majestic underworld, and thus he feels at peace, safe, and where he belongs.

I have tried to stay away from describing him in the context of the fuller pantheon. Except that he was one of the three rulers, of whom he and Poseidon would defer to Zeus. The three may not have been literal brothers, because even words of the 3rd Age might translate to brother; such as Aes Sedai referring to one another as Sisters.

However it is clear that he was a fair and just ruler. Very wise, yet he brooked no nonsense. He was not a man of whim or foolhardy desire. And I don't think he hungered for power, at least to the point of usurping his brother's places. Merely that their mutual 'father' (Cronos; probably their predecessor) remained subdued.

Like Thal, I have also considered Hades role in relation to the other gods of the underworld/death (Lethe, Atropos). Yet as she didn't divulge much of it, perhaps she was wanting to keep this to a RAFO...?

[Nolan Trace]

I am Trano reborn, of the almighty Murican pantheon. I guffaw heartily at the weakness of you Indians, Greeks and Romans. I sit in judgement and find you all wanting, suited for little more than bowing before this red white and blue dick.

[Michael Vellas]

Apologies in advance, I may (most likely) get carried away.

So, Pallas, the Titan of War.

I chose him because he isn't particularly well know and there isn't a clear image of him like Zeus or Ares, and the events and traits that he does have coincide with what I wanted Mikey V to be like, I'm sure you can spot the similarities.

A quick run-down on the mythology of Pallas. He was one of the Titans killed when Zeus rebelled against Cronos, his father.

'Pallas' is thought to be derived from the Greek 'pallo' which means 'to brandish (a spear)'. (he is associated with a spear wielding charioteer)

Pallas was married to Styx (translation, 'hate')

From Styx, he bore a number of children, many which were associated with war. We have Nike (Victory) Zelos (Rivalry) Kratos (Strength) and Bia (Force) which Hesiod describes as 'wonderful children'. He is also the father of Selene (the Moon) [bring back memories?] and Eos (Dawn).

The major child that I'm playing on with Pallas is the rare myth that Pallas was Athene's father. (hence, Pallas Athene)

The major (perhaps only) event that Pallas features in is his death at the hands of Athene. She apparently killed him and used his body as a shield, then made her famous Aegis out of his skin. (This was when Zeus rebelled against the Titans)

Anyhow, that was some good stuff to make a 'real' person out of, so here is what I did with Pallas:

'Pallas' was actually the surname of the family. The man himself was Titan Pallas (yeah, Titan was his first name, blame the people of the Age of Gods). He was a channeler at the turn of Ages, born near the end of the Age of Gods (as a channeler God) and lived most of his life in the early Age of Escape.

He was one of the foremost Generals of his time in the fight against the rebelling people, and died in the fight.

His children were just smooth cats. Nike, Velos, Kratos and Bia were all respected channelers who fought against the rebellion like their father.

Selene was a talented Dreamwalker (hence, 'Moon'). Eos was awesome and brought inspiration to her family. (Dawn being the first rays of light; playing on the whole "light of hope" stuff)

Athene was, like her family, a respected channeler (she is not the same as Athena, Daughter of Zeus who is well known, time twisted the two into one person, but actually they were different people). She betrayed her family to fight for the rebellion. At this time early in the God Wars, they weren't exterminating them all, and a lot of channelers went over to help the people.

Pallas was pretty pissed at his daughter's betrayal. He grew to hate the rebellion because they took away his daughter and began fighting them with real hatred. His wife wasn't a bitch, she was perfectly nice. The myth of him being married to Styx (hate) is a bit of a metaphor. It was a comment on his hatred for the rebellion. (like the Maidens were wedded to the spear, Pallas was wedded to hatred, which basically means he was pretty pissed off. This evolved into people thinking his wife was Styx (hate).)

They fought for 200 years after Athene's betrayal, where Pallas distinguished himself as one of the greatest generals of the era. He was said to have believed himself to be 'the man who discovered war' reborn (although I'm leaving that vague for now )

Eventually, Pallas was confronted by his daughter Athene. He was then killed by her, his last moments spent with the knowledge that he had been betrayed and killed by his own daughter.

For specifics, you'll have to RAFO. I don't know how, but I hope to explore how things went down and what the Pallas family was like through Mikey V. If not, I'll post it up sometime.

Anyhow, that's the basic story of Titan Pallas. Mikey V is in for some hectic times ahead.


Edited by Michael Vellas, Aug 28 2013, 11:46 PM.

[Thalia]

<dl>
<dt>Ascendancy</dt>
<dd> </dd>
</dl>
Like Thal, I have also considered Hades role in relation to the other gods of the underworld/death (Lethe, Atropos). Yet as she didn't divulge much of it, perhaps she was wanting to keep this to a RAFO...?

Oh. LOL. No. Partly I was feeling too lazy to write it out last night – the TAR stuff is a bit long winded. But also, I wondered the same thing!

5th Age Lethe was loyal to Hades, and was probably one of his tools during the wars. Aside from oblivion and forgetfulness, “lethe” also means concealment - so whatever work she did was clandestine enough to not have lasted in stories through the Ages. For anybody who doesn’t know, Lethe is a river in Hades; the one spirits are made to drink from before being reborn, as it erases all memory of their previous life. I interpret that as she’s a part of the way the 'underworld' runs, but by virtue of her nature rather than any active control or intention on her part. In this case her dreamwalking mastery and talent for manipulating dreams. It’s also likely she was able to do a Graendal-esque “mind-wipe” – which might be another reason her myth didn’t persist.

My feeling on Thalia/Lethe’s core personality – the one that exists from age to age – is that she’s inherently rather trusting, and also easily influenced. She’s a placid, concilatory kind of person - finds it easy to calm people down, leaves others feeling lighter after interactions. Difficult to dislike, unless you enjoy kicking puppies. But on the flip side she’s also pretty amoral. Her dream-self - which is always autonomous from her waking self - would have been a pretty potent weapon. She trusted whoever directed her; in this case Hades.

I imagine Lethe knew lots of people, whether they were on the same side as her or not. Her loyalty to Hades would have been known, but she wasn't a soldier as such (not her waking self anyway). No real attachments, no spouse or children.

And she probably would have had contact with other reborn dreamwalkers throughout the Ages (like Jon). She exists there between being reborn (the result of an experiment gone wrong during the AoL).

I'm impressed with the effort that's gone into all these backstories.

Especially Nick's &gt;_&lt;


Edited by Thalia, Aug 29 2013, 12:23 PM.

[Claire]

I'll try to avoid duplicating what's already in my Biography. ^ _ ^

Claire is Atropos. In the Greek, Ατροπος, which means "She who cannot be turned." I believe this interpretation of her name derives from her independent nature, that is, she is a figure representing the neutrality of the Wheel itself, rather than any one side.

Atropos was one of the "Fates" in Greek mythology, known as the Moirai. They were deemed Θεαι Αρχαιαι, or "Ancient goddesses," and often depicted as ancient, gnarled women. I interpret this to mean that by the time the 5th Age pantheon of Greek gods came about, they were already very advanced in age. Perhaps in excess of 1,000 years by the time Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades came into rule. The three goddesses continued to live for a long time after.

They personified destiny and fate. Again this reveals their neutrality. Because their powers were uncontrollable and combined with their independence, they could not be controlled by the gods. They could not be commanded even by Zeus himself. Which leads me to believe that however rule of the Greek pantheon was divided, the three Fates were not a part of it. They were more like consultants, and more akin to oracles or prophets than the other channelers.

The first sister was Klotho who spun (or predicted) the thread of a future life. She had the ability to foretell the birth of prominent figures of fate, be he man or deity. It was her which sourced the prophetic return of gods to the Atharim legend: and named one "Apollyon."

The second sister was Lakhesis. She measured the direction and length of an individual thread. Her foretelling was mixed with a pinch of fortune-telling. Her fortunes, when sought by mankind, could guide the course of that person's destiny, though she did not have the power to change or induce it. Yet all three of the sisters could distribute good and bad fortune to men and nations.

The final and eldest sister was Atropos, the goddess most associated with death, though she had no authority over it. She is most associated with a pair of scales, a sun-dial, or the cutting instrument by which it was said she ended the lives of men and gods in the cutting of their threads.

Together, the sisters' powers were independent of the will of the ruling gods. At the helm of necessity, they directed fate through sharp foretelling of the Pattern, and watched that the fate assigned to every being by eternal laws might take its course without obstruction. They were also revered as more than readers of destiny. They sat in attendance of the great Zeus in his very court. They directed the furia. They ordained heavenly marriages and witnessed the binding of eternal oaths. They blessed the birth of the new gods Apollo, Artemis, and Athena. Accounts describe their participation in the wars of the gods, titans, and giants.

Claire is the oldest sister, Atropos. As a figure closely associated with death, I will have to consider her relationship to the other "death aligned gods." Hades and Atropos would have had respect between them, and perhaps an affinity of ideals. Just because the Fates were neutral doesn’t mean they didn’t each have favourites, or those whose goals they personally identified with more than others – even if their own goals prevented them from taking sides and forced them to stay true to the destinies they perceived as prophets. Likewise, the different warring factions probably had a favorite among the Fates that they turned to when it suited them. As the one associated with imminent death perhaps Atropos was most feared/least favoured. She might have liked Hades for that.

Regarding individual legend. In her biography, as retribution for murder, she killed the Atharim Hunter by snipping away at him. This is meant to be a parallel of the scissors she used to cut an individual thread's life.

The worst crime in the pantheon, in the fate's view, was murder. Because the undue cutting of a thread was a direct force against fate. Therefore, many myths link the Moirai to controlling the Erinyes, or the Furies, (Furia), whose justice against the murderer avenged the will of Fate. They were agents of Atropos. I do not interpret Atropos as having a forcible command over a furia, however, I believe that should she cross paths with one, we will experience a kinship, agreement of views, and natural alignment with one another. The relationship between Atropos and furia was probably one of respect and command rather than slave and mistress.

Finally, I will touch upon the Moirai as distributors of fortune. I view fortune telling as separate from foretelling. Fortunes are fluid, abstract and diffuse. Fortelling is something that will be no matter what. However directly from myth we are told that the Fates rarely distributed fortune to men.

<dl>
<dt>Quote:</dt>
<dd> </dd>
</dl>
There a giant fabric forged of steel and bronze will meet your eyes, the archives of the world, that fear no crush of heaven, no lightning's wrath, nor any cataclysm, standing safe to all eternity. And there you'll find engraved on everlasting adamant the fortunes of your line. I read them there myself and stored them in my memory and I'll declare them that you may not still labour in ignorance of things to come.’"
-Ovid

They journeyed often to the underworld. That is, there is known recordings in dealing with Charon, the ferryman of the Styx. They sat around the throne of Hades in equal positions, with each sister describing the things that were, are, and will be (sound like the three arches much?). Perhaps the most fearsome of descriptions reveals the eventual alliance between the goddesses of Fate and Hades.

<dl>
<dt>Quote:</dt>
<dd> </dd>
</dl>
"The lord of Erebus [Haides], enthroned in the midst of the fortress of his dolorous realm, was demanding of his subjects the misdoings of their lives, pitying nought human but wroth against all the Manes (Shades). Around him stand the Furiae [Erinyes, furies] and various Mortes [Thanatoi, Deaths] in order due, and savage Poena (Vengeance) thrusts forth her coils of jangling chains; the Fatae [Moirai, Fates] bring the Animas (Souls) and with one gesture damn them [literally, ‘the thumb,’ as in the Roman amphitheatre]; too heavy grows the work. Hard by, Minos with his dread brother [Rhadamanthys] in kindly mood counsels a milder justice, and restrains the bloodthirsty king [Haides]."
-Statius

Finally, it seems the only deity capable of placating the will of the Fates, though even she had no power over them, was Persephone, whom prayed on behalf of her husband that the Fates grant mercy. I believe the relationship between the sisters and Persephone, the wife of Hades, was ameable, friendly even, and perhaps part of the reason Atropos' cast some favoritism toward Hades.

As such, I think Claire will feel drawn toward a number of the underworld/death dieties of greek pantheon as well as the furia.

The only foretelling she has had was referenced in her biography. It was about Hades. It is about the future. And at this point, I am unsure if Claire is coming to Moscow because she is repulsed by or attracted to this inkling. We shall see. But she knows she needs to be here.


Edited by Claire, Sep 1 2013, 11:17 AM.