WOT on Prime- Episode 1-3- Spoil Away!

[Armande]

Here is a place to discuss the Wheel of Time on Prime, episodes 1-3. Full spoilers for those episodes ONLY! Book (and general WOT lore, companion, etc) spoilers allowed.

Any and all thoughts for episodes 1-3!
What did you love?
What did you hate?
What are you curious about?
Got any theories?
Where do you think things are going?
What changes did you really like?
What did you really dislike or wonder what the ramification are gonna be?

Anything is fair game!

[Thalia]

Random thoughts below:

I thought it suffered a little from being choppy, and sometimes felt like a collection of scenes (some of which were very strong and some of which felt a bit paint-by-numbers). But I think/hope it's just finding its stride and that the pacing continues to improve. I enjoyed the first ep much more the second time round (watching it with my husband now, who is not a book reader and literally knows nothing about WoT). The acting is very good, and I think they have done an excellent job with the casting. The scenery, costumes and general feel is very high quality imo, I don’t get the criticisms I’ve seen to the contrary.

Personally, I didn't mind the changes to Mat, I thought it set up his character very well (and makes him far more sympathetic than he was at this point in the books). Barney Harris is excellent, the show will lose a gem next season (though I'm sure Donal will also do a good job). Since it's clearly not a performance related issue I really hope the actor is okay.

Wasn't as keen on the Perrin stuff, but I was aware of the rumour so was expecting it (and expecting not to like it much). Not saying that it doesn't make sense, and I don't care that he was married, just not keen on the trope itself and not yet convinced on how well they executed it (which is no shade on the actors, they both did a fabulous job of the scene). It translates the axe/hammer conflict for TV, sure, but accidentally killing someone you love should have deep ramifications, far more than book Perrin’s internal issues. I hope they do it justice rather than leaning on it as shorthand for book Perrin’s inner monologue.

There was some tension between Perrin and Laila that I'm not sure I understood. I assumed she was pregnant at first, then afterwards wondered if it was difficulty conceiving that was the problem (hiding in work, not going to Egwene's ceremony). My husband also thought they implied she was pregnant. But nothing was really clear, it felt like there wasn't enough meat on the bones of their scenes, or that something was cut. At the moment I'm not sure if it's something they just failed to get across, or if it's something we will find out more about later. Why present troubles in a marriage when one half of it exists just to bite the dust? 

My biggest meh moment in ep 1 was when they actually left. Tam went from wielding the heronmarked blade, to injured to healed, and then they were just gone. Despite Moiraine's speech and the impending second wave of attack there just lacked any kind of frantic goodbye or even much resistance. It should have been emotive, especially after the trauma of the attack (which was very well done), but it just felt disconnected to me. My husband even remarked that they all took it a bit well.

Moiraine is absolutely excellent. I think Rosamund Pike is the living embodiment of Aes Sedai. I love her rapport with Lan. Adored the intimacy of the bath without it being sexual or romantic, and the fact she did something so frivolous as make the water warmer because he asked her to. Really looking forward to Tar Valon and her scenes with other AS (especially Suian).

Nynaeve is badass, she has the character down perfectly and I loved all her scenes. Lan's surprised "oh you tried to kill me" line was spot on too.

Wasn't sure about Mat just wandering off at Shadar Logoth. I did like the scene about tools, giving Perrin the knife, and the inference that the city then presented him with something it knew he needed, but I'm not sure if the connection could have been presented more strongly. We see a shadow of I guess Mordeth, but you'd only know that if you'd read the books. Did like that they didn't make any fuss about him taking it though, and left the audience to recognise the dagger when he pulled it on Thom.

Leaving Thom's introduction until later was definitely a good call, I’m not sure how anyone can think his intro would have been done justice if squished into the first episode. I like that the cloak is now a coat (presume it's reversible). Ep 3 was definitely my favourite. Dana was very good, I actually didn't twig she was a DF until she locked the door … for which I felt a bit dumb, but by that point I was enjoying watching rather than comparing I guess. For a moment I actually wondered if she was one of the Forsaken (when she name dropped Ishy). A bit of a plot deviation, but I still wondered. 

Generally I felt like things improved immensely by ep 3.

So, question: Dana said she’d had dreams of 5, so who is the 5th? First obvious thought is Nynaeve, however we spend a whole scene with her and Moiraine ascertaining that she's the wrong age, and Moiraine previously says that the rumours are that the Two Rivers has 4 ta'veren not 5 so it's not that. Do the Forsaken just have dodgy intel? Or is there going to be another candidate? The only other thing I could think of was that it might have been the guy gentled at the beginning who was "the right age" but Moiraine ruled out (nod to Dannil who RJ cut from being a main char perhaps). That seems a reach though lol.

Other things I wondered about: 

Nynaeve saying the previous wisdom was turned away from the Tower at 13. More changes in lore? Nynaeve certainly implies it was because she was poor/a class divide. Not actually a channeler? Raised to Accepted then let go because she couldn't get the shawl? Moiraine doesn't say anything in response which makes me think it's an example of outsiders not being privy to AS ways, but why make a monologue of it? Just to explain Nynaeve's contempt? I did wonder if it was a suggestion of a White Tower informant (and why Moiraine knew about Nyn’s past).

The fact the gentled guy's madness manifested as a person only he could see is perhaps a hint that LTT will be presented in the same way?

Oh, and why did Rand focus on a scar on Egwene’s arm when they were washing up in ep 1? Is that a book detail I’ve forgotten or set-up for something else?

[Nox]

My take on Laila and Perrin's issue is she lost a pregnancy. Nyna askes where she is and told Perrin that is not the work of one person. The focus on the stomach when he wraps his arm around her. And when he says I love you it's almost like an apology.

As for Egwene's scar perhaps it's the lead up to when Nyna healed her and how she knows Egwene is alright etc when it comes up in the story.

[Thalia]

Yeah that makes sense Nox. It still leaves me wondering why it was left vague enough to question, and why it was included at all. If it was to add depth to their relationship surely they could have picked something else? Adding miscarriage to a dead wife just loads on more trauma I'm not yet convinced an ensemble fantasy show is really capable of doing proper justice. It just seemed odd.

I have seen people theorise that Laila will be revealed to be a DF. I don't think that's the case personally. But also, I don't want it to be true, because I think that cheapens it all further. Hey Perrin, it's actually okay you accidentally killed the woman you love, turns out she was a DF anyway.

Do you think we might see more from before Winternight? I can't see why or how it would even fit in, but we never saw Egwene emerging from the pool amidst the paint swirls that was in the trailers. It could be part of something else I guess, but it definitely looks like the same cave.

[Nox]

I'm hoping that they use all the changed back stories to their fullest potential. Because otherwise it's just oh let's add this here so that we include everyone but it's just a token advertisement of hey we are trying to be inclusive... instead of making it have real meaning. Mat's changes are seen really early on so hopefully if they did decide to have them lose a baby that it's a really big deal in the future plot lines with Perrin and Faile. Otherwise, it truly was a dumb move to even slightly imply there was a baby involved.

Nyna being an orphan means that the two rivers now has not one but two orphans. That's a big thing in such a small town. Still struggling with their lack of keeping the two rivers isolated as it should be. I think they are trying to include main stream into something that should have been awe and wonder to those leaving the two rivers. But that's just me.

[Ascendancy]

I kind of got the sense that there were issues in their marriage too. In the books (TSR: ch 32) it is revealed that Perrin originally dreamed of marrying Laila, and she dreamed of marrying him, but he seemed to lose the feeling with time while she remained in love with him. After Perrin left the two rivers, she married Natley Lewin, which Perrin noted was odd because Natley wasn't the type to dance (and Laila loved to dance). That's the extent of info we have about them other that Laila has a baby when Perrin returns to the two rivers.

So I can buy the fact that if Perrin stuck around for a few more years till he was a little older, they could have gotten married. So maybe there is some kind of love triangle or tension with Laila and Natley? Maybe it has to do with a baby (or lack of baby). Maybe she was carrying Natley's child? I hope that we find out more as Perrin reflects on the trauma of that night. Although I think Nynaeve knew what was going on with them, and I wonder if she will spill the beans eventually.

It is possible that they had to edit out more info about what was going on with them but the material ended up on the cutting room floor. I also think that book readers tend to read way too much into things. Manflesh, who doesn't read the books, really doesn't care at all about any of this.


I figured the cave with the paint on Egwene was something to do with her Arches in the Tower. We know they make it to the tower this season because we've seen Egwene reuniting with Nynaeve and Lan with Moiraine watching on in the white tower during trailers. If she gets raised to Accepted this season, I thought maybe the pool would feature in the arches sequence. 

I agree that there could have been more, like maybe there was another scene in there that got cut, between Moiriane telling them to leave and they sitting on their horse the next shot. 

Dana's dreams of 5 could be the 4 ta'veren + Moiraine or the 4 + Nynaeve or 3 boys + Moiraine/Lan. I'm not sure. At that point, the Dark One may still be considering Nyn as a potential candidate for the dragon reborn even if Moiraine has ruled her out. 

The previous wisdom being turned away from the White Tower gave me the sense of unreliable narrator. Like there was probably way more to that story than told. Especially with Moiraine being like totally silent in not responding. Considering the Amyrlin is the daughter of a poor fisherman, I don't think at all that poverty and ragged clothing matter to the Aes Sedai when a potential channeler arrives. It's about the strength of the novice, their potential, and their ability to obey. I doubt the previous Wisdom would have been a good obedient novice... The previous wisdom could totally be an eyes and ears for the blue Ajah now.

[Ascendancy]

oh I'd also read that people were irritated that Mat didn't find the dagger in a giant treasure room with Mordeth there. Mordeth seems like something that could be totally cut out since he merges with Fain later anyway. The shadow of Mordeth or the blackness having woken Mat and lured him away made a lot of sense to me. That he finds the box with the dagger amid a pile of junk just seems like logistics. A huge room full of treasure would either be really bad CGI or a ton of props to be made, which would be a lot of time, effort and money that could be used elsewhere. He got the dagger. That's the important part. Only book readers care about what the room looked like when he got the dagger. lol

[Nox]

I agree I don't care the means to which he got it. My husband did comment, where's all the treasure. But there were lots of comments lol. Some I agreed with but then if he hadn't mentioned them I might not have noticed.

[Ascendancy]

Things I loved:

• Thom's song gave me chills. His voice was beautiful. I loved the tenor of his voice and reminded me that as a gleeman/bard, he can command a room with his emotion and storytelling. The lyrics were so moving and that Rand teared up during the song was really moving. 
  
• I also loved Thom's coat having the colors on the lining/inside. I always thought the idea of a colored cloak to be a little too "Coat of Many Colors" or "Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat" - which I thought was super tacky. 
  
• Very glad they changed his harp to a guitar. The harp thing was stupid IMO. Yes he's a fancy bard, but I just thought it was super high fantasy "cheesy".
   
• I don't remember there being any Aiel in a cage but that's probably because I haven't read EotW in so long. I liked that they introduced the concept of Aiel early with the hair color foreshadowing. My husband completely didn't get it. I asked if he noticed the hair that Thom pointed out. He was like, yeah... and I said, "does any of our main characters have that color hair." and he was like, "uhhh I don't know.." when I said who, he very much was like meh, okay whatever. More evidence of things that seem hugely important to us, to the generic watcher, is like completely forgettable. haha. Then again, Manflesh still doesn't know which character is which yet.. "Which one is Rand again?" lol He has no clue. he does know Moiraine is the "magic lady" though. haha!!
  
• As a former writer of Lythia, who was from a small mining town in the Mountains of Mist, I loved the Breen Spring town (its that the right name?) and all of its aesthetic. A child growing up in an environment like that would totally fit Lythia's grit and ruggedness.
  
• Dana was perfect depiction of a Darkfriend. Super normal seeming at first, if oddly overly interested in Mat and Rand. That Rand was completely oblivious to the fact that she was coming on to him until she tried to kiss him and he leaned back all surprised was so perfectly Rand's being oblivious when it comes to girls. Dana's "crazy eyes" were so creepy. 
  
• I wonder how a Darkfriend "calls" one of the Eyeless.
  

[Thalia]

100% on book readers reading too much into things. I am VERY guilty of that. My husband is just enjoying it for what it is too. He's noticed Rand's red hair (in as far as he's "the ginger one") but it'll be interesting to see if he links that to what Thom says about the Aiel (he hasn't seen ep 3 yet). I don't think he will - I don't think its even been mentioned that Rand isn't Tam's biological son yet - but to be fair he has picked up on other things I didn't think he would. Moiraine has progressed from wizard lady (complete with accompanying hand movements) to "the iodine lady" here, because that's apparently how he's hearing Aes Sedai. Who does manflesh think the DR is?

I agree with Nox that the changes have to have repercussions that work for the story and characters or there's just no point to them. At the moment a baby seems pointless. I hope we find out more.

I read somewhere that Rafe had wanted a two hour opening episode, but was vetoed by execs. Two hours might have been too long tbh, but it would be interesting to see what they would have done without constraints. There are a couple of stills in the x-ray stuff from cut scenes. Even 10 minutes extra overall would probably have addressed the bits that felt a bit thin.

Nynaeve was still an orphan in the books, just not as a baby. The way Moiraine approached her seemed designed to needle her temper into answers, so perhaps she meant she was not specifically from Emond's Field (which she wasn't). The show hasn't really made it explicit that the Two Rivers is a collection of several villages, of which Emond's Field is only one.

I hope the wisdom story is a case of unreliable narrator.

I enjoyed both the songs, love that they made time for that. Definitely prefer guitar over harp too, especially as it's what the actor plays. It also fits the soundtrack better.

The only Aiel in a cage I remember is Gaul. But no dead ones.

I love that take on Breen Springs! It does totally fit Lythia's origins. That's kinda cool. As an aside, the Green AS in the opening credits really reminds me of Kekura. It's such a shame happenstance didn't make her the Red AS.

See, I didn't think anything of Dana's interest because it was initially Mat who chased. They're two handsome boys, and she was fairly young, I just figured especially after Rand chopped all that wood that she'd decided maybe they were a good prospect to hang on to. I was totally sucked in by her sob story too >_<

The shadow in Shadar Logoth could also be Fain. When Mat wakes up, we hear the tune Fain was whistling on the way into the village. (I can't take credit for noticing that lol). I preferred there be no treasure, it felt like the city was offering Mat something he needed and would be tempted by -- a knife to replace the one he gave away, and an expensive looking one because he's poor. It made more sense for him to take it considering he's in a creepy cursed city where he's been told not to touch things.