Horn of Valere/Plotting/Past Life

[Thalia]

In her 2nd age life Thalia was primarily a researcher at the collam daan who studied the connections between dreams, memories, and the soul. This culminated in the experiment that led to her own soul being tied to TAR.

That means her life in the 1st Age has to be the one in which she’s released from that binding, in order for it to happen again in the next Age. So I’ve been thinking about the whys and hows.

I’ve included that she studied the Horn of Valere, since that is an obvious link to souls that are bound and also exist in TAR between rebirths. But of course we don’t know how or why or when the horn was created, just that it’s one of those legendary objects that persisted in various myths through the Ages.

The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn’t any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn’t available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

So basically Thalia was the weirdo focused on something most people would think was a bunch of rubbish. Well, that fits. I figure her interest was a result of a dream prophecy that she kept to herself due to an expectation of ridicule. In this life she paints prophecies, but they are only revealed to be such after her death. Does anyone mind if I infer she was responsible for the Old Tongue inscription being added to the horn in this Age? I don't think canonically we know when or why it was done, just that it was some time in the 2nd Age. For my purposes it would be before the horn was lost. 

I don’t yet have motivation for the experiment that went wrong, or know exactly what she was trying to do. Possibly it was something she was pursuing during the Collapse. Any ideas?

I read somewhere else that the Horn was created in the Age before the AoL (or possibly before that) which potentially means its creation can tie in with this Age and this life.

I know we have a wiki entry for the norse version of the horn (them being one and the same) but have we done anything IC with it?

Someone brainstorm with me! I’m looking to flesh out the 2nd Age story, and also to see if there’s anything to use for a future FA plot.

[Jaxen Marveet]

Is this the entry you are referencing?

https://thefirstage.org/wiki/gjallarhorn-d1/

I reasoned that it was used in Ragnarok. We could say its power was destroyed after that until the next turning of the wheel. No more heroes coming out until it's 'reset' by 2nd-age Thalia? 

I reason the horn is still out there though. Virginia's comment that the wheel uses inanimate objects is cool to me.

[Thalia]

Yup.

And that tracks.

7th or 1st Age - created (or came into being). Do we think the Pattern literally manifests it, or puts into motion the circumstances for it being made? If it was a myth in the 2nd Age then presumably that myth came from somewhere, which suggests it was made (or was manifested for a purpose). I like the idea of the Pattern using inanimate objects too.

2nd Age - basically a myth. Lost, and then rediscovered to be hidden away for the Dragon.

3rd Age - used

4th/5th Age - lost? sitting in a museum somewhere?

6th - used at Ragnarok and destroyed as a result.

Maybe it ends up on other worlds in some Ages when it's not needed?

Rinse and repeat.

For 2nd Age Thalia's purpose I wasn't thinking she reset it (though that's something to ponder?) but that she studied it, and thought it important despite it being considered a myth (hence adding the inscription to it). Whatever she discerned was the foundation of how she managed to get herself tied to TAR later on in the Age. I have some ideas now as to why she did that.

If she doesn't reset it, just studies it, then that leaves it open for someone to do it in this Age. Either it's been created already (7th Age) or that's yet to happen. Maybe someone resets it in this Age.

[Jaxen Marveet]

Depends what purpose you want a Horn for. Then back-fill a story makes the purpose reasonable to exist.

Any of those work as far as I figure. It can just pop in and out of the world when the pattern wants it to or it can stay somewhere on planet earth all the time no matter what. 

If it was a myth in the Age of Legends, that myth had to come from somewhere. Are you thinking it gets used in the 1A? Seems like a stretch that the myths from Ragnarok 6A might last long enough to carry over to the end of the 2A to account for the "myth" mentioned in age of legends.

[Marcus DuBois]

I really love this. It could be that the item was provided by the *finn as well at some point (and thus even when it disappears- perhaps *given* to the *finn) it will appear again. Sort of a paradox where the object was given *to* the finn in the future and the finn give it to man in the past so...where did it come from? Sounds like a creator tool since it is tied to the pattern and the Heroes it calls are chosen by the pattern. And there are rules- strictures, as Brigitte said- and things not being "right"- what Artur Hawkwing said at Falme saying that something held them back. Turns out they needed the dragon banner to lead them.

Usage in the 1st age...thats interesting. It'd be interesting to see that play out. In particular, the "Female dragon" Ameterasu would be really cool to see (damn, that should be a PC!) The one who exists when the dragonsoul is not on the right side or not around. And Calian and Shiva too...it would have to be deep in the story- near the end of the age, id imagine- at least that's my first impression.

[Jaxen Marveet]

The Amerasu thing makes my head hurt. 

Plus ask 10 different wot fans and you'll get 10 different opinions on what she actually was in all the hypothetical versions of the turning of the wheel or other worlds.

Ameratsu reborn, the Japanese sun goddess, would be a bitchin' pc though. Definitely a hero of the light. All these great heroes of the light makes me wonder who among us as 1A characters would be heroes of the horn also. Clearly it ain't Sith Lord Marcus *wink.

Vlad and Jai were born in the 3A so they were already alive when the horn is sounded. They have the souls for it though. Andre is a literal greek hero. So he might but not sure if he's powerful enough. Nox probably is. In fact, he's probably the most clearly a hero of the horn of all of us. Damn goody two shoes. *wink

[Marcus DuBois]

yeah, I still dont get RJs thinking that somehow the Dragon every went and served the dark at some point. that makes no sense. If he served the DO then that means the DO used him and so...why didnt the DO win? As in break the pattern? How Rand/LTT actually SERVED the DO- on his side- is really a brain melter.

But I love the idea of amerasu (but she is NOT EGWENE!!! not now. Not ever!!!) ;-)

Marcus....not a hero? you hurt my hurt, Jaxen! hes the nicest sweetest guy. Certainly friendlier than nox ;-)

[Thalia]

Maybe Vlad earned his hero of the horn wings in a later life and he just wasn't a hero in *that* 3rd age turning. Or he earned it with deeds then and was tied only in future Ages, therefore was present for Ragnarok. Same could work for Jai, if Jai manages to be suitably heroic in the 3rd Age. He definitely has the soul for it, but uh, *points at thread*

Or, actually, if we're saying the horn has to be reset maybe that's actually all a possibility. Different heroes in different Ages? If they have to be heroic before being tied, surely there are some Ages they aren't tied? Vlad didn't have a 6th Age life did he? Just 5th and 7th? Maybe he wasn't in the 6th Age because he was required by the horn in that Age.

That's a really good point about the 6th Age being too long ago for the horn to even be a myth in the 2nd Age.

The horn could have a biblical connection too though (Gabriel). Which Age are we placing that?

Ck did you just volunteer to write amaterasu?

I don't have a single hero-worthy PC, ha.

[Nox]

Nox a hero... he is scoffing in my head. He hates the idea though if you ask anyone else they know the truth. He has a savior complex in most every world he's in.

And I think the 6th age is right about on par for the 2nd age myth...

The quote goes "leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten" assuming memories are present day memories. If you are looking for a 2nd age myth, you have to go backwards. So in the first age it's a legend and in the 6th age (assuming that's the there is no 7th age) is the memory.

[Marcus DuBois]

So the canonical Bible doesn't mention Gabriel in reference to a trumpet. Gabriel appears as an angel who spoke to Daniel and then the angel who performed the annunciation to Mary in the gospels (Luke, I think). The apocrypha (Tobit, I think- probably many others including documents in the Dead Sea Scrolls) expands out the idea of archangels, and in particular that there are seven of them. Gabriel, Raphael, etc. Traditions also merges a lot of these things together (Similar to how Mary Magdalene is spoken as a former prostitute because she is conflated with two other female characters in the gospels.)

BUT, to the point about the Trumpets, there are 2 places in particular that can be mined. 1 Thessalonians 4 speaks of the voice of an archangel, and speaking as a trumpet when he raises the dead at the end. And Revelation speaks of the 7 trumpet blasts which bring various plagues, etc. 

The first one definitely has echoes in the horn of valere and how it is used in the WOT series mythos. Be interesting to see how this could be incorporated. The question of where it came from is now something I really am curious about, given our game history. Each age is fairly well mapped out and it's hard to see in which it could come into existence. I confess I like the *finn idea for many reasons (including the paradox aspect)..   

In many ways, the horn feels like the portals- sort of out of time- and out of sync- with the rest of the RJ world. It is an early WOTism, when RJ was still fleshing out his world. Rand still was going to go blind literally and wander as a wounded beggar, Elayne would lose a hand, etc (Livingston's book). Rand appearing above the sky in Falme (retconned as a "Pattern Level Event" by RJ later.) He was still doing the world building. I think that makes it harder for me to fit it into the world lore.