WOT on Prime- Episode 1-3- Spoil Away!

[Giovanni]

On Perrin being married:

“For this character that’s extremely internal — you really never get to hear his internal monologue that out loud in the book — we give him a moment at the beginning of the series where you understand why he, across the course of the series, has such a struggle with violence.“

Source: https://winteriscoming.net/2021/11/22/th..._dKeH8JGD8

[Thalia]

Indulge me while I overthink things a bit more

Specifically about the changes to Mat and the Cauthons.

Mat mentions being a horsetrader in ep 3, and he tries to drive a bargain with Fain in ep 1 like he’s accustomed to bartering (so maybe his claim has a basis in truth and isn’t just an attempt to impress Dana). Is it possible they haven’t dramatically changed Mat’s backstory at all, that the Cauthons were affluent and well respected, but have been broken by grief and Abell lost it all?

The E5 kids aren’t just aged up, the inference is that the timeline has passed along enough for Perrin to have married Laila (like book-Perrin said he had once intended, as Asc pointed out). Could the Cauthons have lost a daughter in this extra time? The little girls have the names given for Mat’s sisters in the books, but there is also an inconsistency in how many sisters book Mat says he has (which I think was just a mistake on RJ’s part, but anyway). The show’s writers might have used that to canonically justify an unnamed sister.

Both Natti and Abell’s behaviour looks like it could stem from grief to me. The girls are both shown to love their mother and usually sleep with their parents at night, in fact they generally seem pretty happy and well-adjusted. Mat clearly shields them from the worst of the neglect -- they think mum is sick, and they aren’t afraid of her outbursts, so it doesn’t seem to me she’s like it all the time. The show really focuses in on the loss and reflection part of Bel Tine (the show’s rituals actually seem to have more in common with something like samhain than beltane). Whatever the specifics, the Cauthons have clearly lost someone, and recently enough that Bel Tine is still more painful than comforting for them. It seems Natti’s way to cope that night is to get drunk, while Abell buries his head.

I don’t think the village (or Nynaeve) would just tolerate Natti and Abell being shitty parents and shitty people. It’s one of the main criticisms I’ve seen for the change. The effects of grief would be viewed differently by the rest of the village, though.

It might also be significant that Natti’s braid is super short and a little ragged, like maybe she’s cut it off. There’s nothing to suggest cutting hair is a ritual of loss for women in the Two Rivers, but we do know women’s braids are significant. Nearly every other adult woman we see has very long waist-length hair.

Rand and Perrin chip in specifically for lanterns for the girls, and we later learn they are used as part of a tradition of guiding departed souls back home. There’s a peddler’s wagon full of potential treats for two little girls, but the boys clearly know why Mat was gambling for funds the previous night. Even Fain seems to know he will want 3, Mat doesn’t ask for them, he asks for money (I think he was hoping to buy the lanterns and make some coin from the bracelet he stole. Funnily enough given Perrin’s declaration that they’ve noticed Mat’s lack of luck, his friends give him the money after he already has lanterns. So maybe he’s not quite as unlucky as it seems because he actually got exactly what he wanted).

The first of Mat’s lanterns is actually given over by him to Natti. Tam’s voiceover is specifically at the part where he talks about dealing with heartbreak, and “even death”. When he goes on to say that the Wheel keeps turning “always” we see Natti launch the lantern, and then the shot focuses on Mat and the girls while Tam talks about trying to do better the next time. I think they chose those shots very purposefully to tie them with the words (they also seem to choose very particular shots when Moiraine tells the Manetheren story so I’m assuming it's intentional).

If Mat had lost a sister, it would also add extra weight to his scene comforting Perrin. The focus is on Perrin’s loss, but Mat seems in a ton of pain himself. Why would Laila have given him a knife? And not just that, but the story that went alongside it. As book readers we know that tools v weapons is a huge motif for Perrin’s character conflict, so it makes sense for him to hear it. But ignore that for a second, and consider why Laila said it to Mat at all? Here is a gift, a practical tool (because Laila always made tools not weapons), but also something you might use in the future to protect someone you love. Why make that distinction? It sounds a lot like someone trying to offer comfort: here is something to make you feel in control, a talisman against future loss.

I’m not sure that any of that, if it’s even remotely correct, will ever come up in the show (although, man, if when we return to the Two Rivers we see that the Cauthons have rebuilt themselves like the Manetheren of old, that will be a sweet pay-off. It might also be a way they help Perrin to address and process his own grief and ability to move on when he goes home, because they do need to address it somehow and not just use it as a way to illustrate his conflict with violence). In any case it’s interesting to think how show Mat’s changes might also have been rooted in the books.

As to what might have happened to this sister, another thing I didn’t quite understand was Bran’s reaction to Egwene’s return after the ceremony, because while Marin is ready to celebrate and all the women are cheering, he is visibly worried -- like he thought something bad might have happened to her. We know the men aren’t privy to the whole ritual, and nor did we probably see it all, but it seemed odd. Being chucked from cliffs aside, Bran doesn’t know what the ceremony involves in order to be worried about it. I really doubt women routinely die during it, that would make it stupid and risky. So why would he be afraid? Unless an accident had happened in a past ceremony, in which his best friend had lost a daughter. 

The other suggestion might be that she was a channeler. In the books Bode is much closer to Mat in age, and goes to the Tower to train, so if they used that as a template in the show perhaps she had the spark (rather than just having the ability to be taught), and because everything is happening a little later she died of the Sickness.

[Armande]

Damn, but this pretty much tracks with it all, thal. All of it. Brilliant.

I think the reasoning for showing an accidental killing by Perrin is definitely a sound one. I think the emotional trauma of it being his wife (as opposed to say, master Luhan) is incredibly large. Brandon Sanderson himself argued with Rafe that the resulting trauma and ptsd would be something too big to add to the story to overcome.

Even if she was a dark friend (I don't like this) or was simply in a deep post partum depression and wanted to be free of Perrin (better) her trying to kill him and him killing her inadvertently wouldn't make him feel all that much better. It puts a massive cloud over him.

That said, I love the texture given to the TR folk. It cannot have been a perfect little town with only the Coplins and Congars having problems. All of this just gives these characters more depth in the soil they grew up in.

[Thalia]

That said, I love the texture given to the TR folk. It cannot have been a perfect little town with only the Coplins and Congars having problems. All of this just gives these characters more depth in the soil they grew up in.

More than that, I think it’s a necessary change to give weight and authenticity to Dana’s speech, and ultimately Ishamael’s philosophies on the Wheel v Tam’s much more hopeful depiction. For Dana (or anyone) to have believably (and even sympathetically) turned to the Dark for those reasons, we have to see, believe, and feel the suffering -- and most importantly that it happens to good people, and for no reason. In the books Emond’s Field is very Shire-esque, in fact it's pretty much idyllic. The people are resilient, hard-working, good people, and they lead charmed lives. We do see them destroyed and rebuild, of course, but the root of their suffering is still the DO. By the time the books gets to things like the Forsaken’s motivations we have a much more nuanced view, but the show doesn’t have the sprawl for that. It suggests they are going for a good set-up for the show Forsaken to be compelling antagonists (like you said, it moves away from the mustache-twirling villain).

I think the reasoning for showing an accidental killing by Perrin is definitely a sound one. I think the emotional trauma of it being his wife (as opposed to say, master Luhan) is incredibly large. Brandon Sanderson himself argued with Rafe that the resulting trauma and ptsd would be something too big to add to the story to overcome.

I agree whole-heartedly with Sanderson’s reservations. But I will patiently wait and see how they handle it. I think he has also said on reddit that although it wouldn’t have been his choice for Perrin, they did a good job. Guess we’ll see.

Even if she was a dark friend (I don't like this) or was simply in a deep post partum depression and wanted to be free of Perrin (better) her trying to kill him and him killing her inadvertently wouldn't make him feel all that much better. It puts a massive cloud over him.

I hate the theory that Laila’s a DF with a passion (and actually I don’t think it’s true, don’t worry I’m gonna bore you with why in a moment ). I also don’t like the suggestion that whatever is going on with her pregnancy/fertility/miscarriage is her motivation for either becoming a DF or trying to kill Perrin (personally I think the latter is actually way worse, but this is already going to be a lengthy post so I’ll leave it at that). I don’t believe for a second that she tried to kill Perrin either.

I don’t reckon Laila has had a miscarriage but that it’s more likely they are having trouble conceiving (and she is struggling with this more than Perrin, and probably blames herself). Perrin makes a point of seeking out Rand to reassure him about Egwene but doesn’t even notice his own wife’s absence until Nynaeve pulls him up on it. If she’s recently lost a child that makes him a pretty shit husband (especially around Bel Tine and its ritualised reflections on loss and rebirth), but also doesn’t track because we’re shown he cares about the people he loves. It would also suggest Perrin isn’t affected himself by the loss of a pregnancy, which just. No.

When he goes to Laila he doesn’t mourn with her like you’d expect if there had been a loss, in fact he almost berates her when he asks why she’s in the forge. It takes him a second to actually understand (as if the issue is something that plagues her far more than him). When he does get it, he reassures her with “I love you.” And he touches her belly to acknowledge that he understands without having to use words. I don’t think she answers “I know” because she doesn’t love him (or is conflicted because she’s a DF) but because Perrin has married someone exactly like him: someone who feels deeply, internalises a lot, and doesn’t express much with words. She leans into him, and grasps hold of his little finger (something she does again in the morning when they’re in bed). He is literally a pillar of love and support for her. Her body language speaks far louder than her words. She doesn’t tell him she loves him, she shows it.

Perrin and Laila are the only ones we don’t see light a lantern. They only watch.

I also think we are given plenty of reason to think Laila is a good person -- in fact the archetypal good, stoic, hardworking Two Rivers woman. Whatever your interpretation of her and Perrin’s marriage tensions, when it comes to the celebratory part of Winternight marking life and renewal and hope, we see her and Perrin genuinely happy and dancing with the others. That’s Two Rivers blood right there, getting back up after life’s challenges, and hoping for better. In the forge we see her protect other villagers and usher them to safety. She also uses the hammer -- a tool not a weapon. And we know from Mat that a tool can be used to protect the ones you love, and she was cognisant of that.

Personally, I don’t think she is poised to attack Perrin when he strikes her, I think she is poised to smash the dead trolloc at his feet because of how frantically she’s been trying to protect him and how close Perrin came to dying. He spins from the opposite direction to the one her hammer looks pointed in, which is exactly where the trolloc is laying. Prior to Perrin’s wolf frenzy (I love that you hear the wolf growl) Laila is the one holding her own in the fight. When she’s ushering the villagers out Perrin tells her to run before promptly getting smashed down to the ground by the trolloc. He’s toast.

Laila comes charging back to protect him. She literally screams and beats the trolloc off him. With the hammer. 

She’s desperately trying to protect him.

There is zero point in her trying to kill him after that. The trolloc was literally about to do it.

I think the symbolism of her using the hammer and him the axe is super important to that scene, particularly with what Mat says of her later. But the most compelling thing for me is that as she’s dying, knowing that her husband has just accidentally gutted her, she holds onto his little finger for the third and final time. 

She’s literally telling Perrin that she loves him.

Making her a DF has no purpose except as a shoddy attempt to exonerate Perrin’s actions later. And it’s messy, like you said it just leaves him with trust issues instead -- he married, trusted, and loved a DF. I can’t see any practical function either. Padan Fain marks the village for the trollocs. If Laila knew the Winternight attack was coming, why was she dancing and smiling on the green? It’s the only time we see her look genuinely happy. She could have slipped away, or skipped out on the celebration like she did Egwene’s ceremony. As Perrin’s wife she would have had plenty of opportunity to kill him if that was her priority. She also had the opportunity to escape the forge with those she ushered out and let the trollocs deal with Perrin. It’s why they’re there after all.

The other thing I’ve seen offered as evidence that she’s a DF is the dream sequence. That the wolf eating her corpse is the wolves “warning” Perrin about her. But honestly lol. Ba’alzamon is there (and the wolf DOESN’T react to him), so it's much more likely to be his entire creation and attempt to manipulate Perrin into blaming his wolf-connection for her death, and/or associate the carrion act with the DO (either way pushing a wedge between Perrin and the wolves). The wolves hate the Dark and all its associations, and they don’t exactly grasp human emotions. If that was really Hopper he isn’t going to waste time soothing Perrin’s human guilt by warning him about a dead wife who is ultimately no longer a threat, he’s going to be warning Perrin about the DO in his dream -- and even more likely protecting Perrin by chasing him straight out of that dream.

[Nox]

Side note: Anyone notice Moiraine has the little man with crossed legs angreal in the very opening scene?

[Beto]

Side note:  Anyone notice Moiraine has the little man with crossed legs angreal in the very opening scene?

I did notice the angreal. But I couldn't remember the description of HER angreal she always carried. 

Thal,

Yeah, the DF thing since too easy and boring. Her being on the green relaxing verses fain's waiting for the attack is good indicator. And I hadn't noticed the little finger thing. I think so many would like there to be a DF or PPD or some other reason for her to attack as it *APPEARS* to be the only way to resolve the trauma of Perrin's killing his wife the easiest.

Perrin was always the most Emo of the characters- and it made sense. But the wallowing levels and depths we saw got a bit much. That whole Faile kidnap and the competition with the First of Mayene only made things worse. And then, for it to be book 13 that we finally (FINALLY) got Perrin to face his true fears- his berserker mode- well, it was a cloud hanging over him.

The berserker fear had to be real and I get the killing of someone. But I just don't see how you resolve that or forgive yourself. Because it LITERALLY was your worst fear. Your berserker mode killed your wife. It feels like it's going "oh yeah? you thought Perrin got emo and mopey before? You ain't seen nothing yet." It just feels like a dark cloud over him that will, over all, pull his character down.

Yes, it's early and we've only seen 3 episodes. But that level of trauma. The only possible thing worse would be if it was his kid. I've personally known 2 people who killed their kids in accidents (both backing over them- this was over 20 years ago.) You don't come back from that. They didn't. A wife...that's a little less horror- but only by that much.

It seems like too much to have put on him. Ultimately, I think that's why we see so many ideas that sort of mitigate Perrin's actions because it seem like the only way to have him realistically get to the places he needs to be. As mopey and emo as he was, he still had his moments of humor and love and other things.

So I hope they can do it. Because they set a massive task before htem that, ultimately, was completely unnecessary and could threaten to derail Perrin's character- and whatever else changes they make I'm fine as long as the characters stay true to the spirit (well, egewene is 1000% better, so that I don't mind ;-) 

They have a lot on their plate already. They just added a 10 pound cut of gristle to the meal. I honestly hope they can do this. This cannot be resolved in an episode or two. not and be believable in any way.

[Jay Carpenter]

I don't buy that Laila was a Darkfriend. I am with Thal's reasoning on this. Given that killing a wife is the kind of thing that Jay would do on accident,  and something I would do to Jay just to torture him, I'm fine with the trauma. But only if they show the long-term effects. I like that it is going to be a reason why Perrin resists Faile for so long. The memory of his wife and moving on from her feels like a betrayal. It makes Perrin and Faile more interesting and we will root for their relationship when they finally do hook up. Shit, Perrin is the most controversial of the 3 boys. People like him until he becomes a pain in the ass, stuck in his own arc, and refuses growth for so long. This gives his resistance a chance to be interesting.

The Angreal was definitely noted, Nox. I knew exactly what it was when I saw it. I'm sure she used it Winternight. 

I always loathed the Shire-like perfection of EF in the books. It was incredibly irritating how it was just no big deal that their world was destroyed and rebuilt. Nothing and nobody is perfect like that. Plus it gave book 1 such a copy of the Hobbit feeling that it was a huge turn off to me the first time I read it. I know now that it was RJ getting his footing with the world and the story, but the fact that the Congars and whatever the other family was that were the only people in town to have any drama, fighting, disagreements, or conflict meant they must be dark friends actually elicits a visceral reaction out of me. 

Laila did not go to the women's circle ceremony that day. Something was bothering her. Mat's mom had cut off her hair and we don't see her at the women's circle ceremony either that day (unless I missed it). Nynaeve knows what's bother Laila. Apparently the whole town is aware of what's bothering Mat's mom. I also don't think that the women's circle would let Mat's little sisters suffer or go hungry. Yes they looked like they dire straights, but it could be that the Cauthon's were too proud to accept help. Mat resists the charity of his own two friends to buy a lantern (though eventually gives in). I think they simply were refusing help, but I also believe the women's circle would help the girls if they were really in trouble.

Long story short, it all feels very realistic to me. 

One of my favorite draws to WoT is the logic of Ishmael (and later Moridin). I really liked that his draw to the DO was not mustache twirling evil but to end suffering and the endlessness of it all. We have to show suffering, even in the most harmless kinds of suffering (oh my god a man cheats on his wife in the two rivers = suffering! The horror!) to demonstrate why the world is shit and should come to an end. That makes the counter of the Dragon all the more powerful that it deserves to be saved. 

You have to have darkness to show you the light. 

That's the entire point of Jai and Jay as a character and to me sums up the entire theme of the wheel of time and why I fucking love these books.

[Beto]

Yeah, completely agree on the perfection of the TR and the single group blaming that went on. It wasn't realistic. I noticed it in book. Convenient scape goats. I've seen comments on how Abel Cauthon was done dirty and it ruins everything and I was like huh? He's like in one or two scenes in TSR and is portrayed as Tam-lite. He's not someone you get invested in. People looking for reasons to hate.

And nothing says that this isn't something he pulls out of. Or that he hadn't taught Mat about horses. Or anything else. That he doesn't get his own redemption arc.So yeah, way more texture in the TR here. A village worth saving with real people. Not caricatures.

I am hopeful they can play the perrin-laila thing correctly. I don't think it was necessary but it is done and I don't wish them to fall on their face. I want this to be good. Perrin and Mat never really had well drawn personalities until book 3 (though there was a bit of Perrin in TGH when Rand disappeared). You can't do that in the series. Mat is been fantastically done and it sucks that we wont see Barney for season 2 because I bet he could play Post Tower/Healing Mat perfectly. Perrin can work. It's a bigger complication with more far reaching ramifications, but maybe it can be done. As I said, I just hope he doesn't have a permanent cloud over him because his character got exhausting because of the one he already had. This just adds more. (I tired just THINKING of perrin).

Ishamael's philosophy was really good because it was about more than power. Others just wanted power for X reasons. He wanted an end to the endless rebirths and suffering. Of course, he caused as much suffering both in collateral things and in things he literally did (Thinking of the dream shard with the trapped tormented souls.) Not like he was a humanitarian. He wanted an end to HIS suffering. (Reminded me of the terrible Walberg movie Infinite where that was a primary motivation of the bad buy.) But when you view everything as temporary, it doesn't matter, in the long run.

Still, I love it's appearance in what appears to be some rando DF. Too bad she died. She was awesome. Having her take Mili Skane's place (the fox faced DF who tried to kill mat in book 1) would have been nice. But it's awesome that there are already more than the dumb and easiest reasons why someone serves the DL.

[Beto]

Rafe is on Reddit at this moment answering questions (as of 11/24 10:32 MST).

https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comm..._producer/

Already answered regarding WOT swearing, Uno, how rumors of Taveren in the TR actually happened (and Thal, you were right. Eyes and Ears, it seems.)

Not Gaul in the cage (expected.)

[Thalia]

Thanks ck. Will read properly later.

He STILL won't answer about Steve! lol